Mr. NORRELL. You have another item which is quite large, for equipment. Is that something that the War Department took away, or just something that you are going to have to replace because of your

own use?

Mr. TOLSON. It is what was transferred to the military agencies. Mr. NORRELL. That is $85,554?

Mr. TOLSON. That will enable us to purchase part of the equipment that we need to replace that was transferred to the War Department and other war agencies, and the equipment which has been completely worn out and which will be disposed of.

FOREST PROTECTION AND FIRE PREVENTION

Mr. NORRELL. Now, will you say something about your proposed increase of $32,281 for forest protection and fire prevention?

Mr. TOLSON. That covers fire protection service for these monuments where there are forested areas, insect control, tree preservation, and fire-control equipment. A fire-protection service item of $21,304 out of this $32,281 requested is to supply two additional fire guards, one of which is to man a lookout tower in Jackson Hole National Monument, that being one of the activities that we are required to undertake in that monument as it was formerly performed by the Forest Service.

Mr. NORRELL. How much is that?

Mr. TOLSON. The two additional fire guard positions will total about $2,000. We need another one for patrol work in Dinosaur National Monument, Utah and Colo. We have found that the cost of fire protection position expenses have increased about 40 percent over what they were in 1942.

The insect-control item is very small, $2,249, but important. Then there is a larger item of $21,000 for tree preservation. This is to preserve trees in the military and historical areas in the East. We expect to use some of these funds ($9,720) to employ a foreman and three tree workers, and to buy equipment which will cost $4,200. The travel and other expenses of these employees who will have to go from one military area to another, will amount to some $7,080. The fire-control equipment will comprise such items as fire hose, fire extinguishers, and pumpers.

HYDE PARK PROJECT

Mr. JONES. In the item here for the home of Franklin D. Roosevelt, how do you have the work divided between yourselves and the Archives?

Mr. TOLSON. Mr. Demaray can probably answer that as he has been working with the National Archives and Public Buildings Administration to work out a plan for handling this work.

Mr. DEMARAY. The Archives have charge of the library which has, I think 7 acres, and it is entirely separate as an appropriation. As a matter of fact, there are two appropriations; the Archives have charge of the materials that are in the library, and the Public Buildings Administration maintains the building and provides the guards. The two areas, while they adjoin one another, are completely separate as far as appropriations are concerned.

Mr. JONES. Do you have anything to do with the inside of the building at all?

Mr. DEMARAY. No, sir.

Mr. JONES. Just the contiguous grounds?

Mr. DEMARAY. That is right.

Mr. DRURY. You are speaking of the separate library building. We are in charge of the home of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

Mr. DEMARAY. The library is separate, but it is adjoining the home of the late President.

Mr. NORRELL. I believe this completes this item.

We will adjourn until 10 o'clock in the morning.

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 1946.

POLICY IN REGARD TO CONCESSIONS IN NATIONAL PARKS

Mr. NORRELL. I want to ask you what the general policy of the Park Service is in operating concessions within the park areas. Is it your policy to have one man operate your concessions or do you have two or more people or a number of people operating them?

Mr. DRURY. Well, in many areas we have a number of concessionaires. In general our experience has shown that the public is better served if the Government can contract with one properly equipped concessionaire and regulate, of course, his operations in such a way as to assure fair rates and adequate service to the public.

Mr. NORRELL. I wish you would point out why you think the public is better protected when you have only one operator rather than two or more?

Mr. DRURY. Yes; I will try to do that. I want to say, Congressman Norrell, that Mr. Oliver G. Taylor, who is Chief of our Branch on Concessions, is here, and I would like to have him amplify any remarks I make on that.

Mr. NORRELL. Yes; but I want us to be as brief as possible.

Mr. DRURY. Mr. Taylor has, of course, made a special study of the whole concessionaire system and is very familiar with the past history of the National Park Service.

In general, it has been found that where there is something approaching cutthroat competition among concessionaires the public suffers as a result.

Mr. NORRELL. The public gets cheaper prices, does it not?

Mr. DRURY. No; not necessarily, because the Secretary of the Interior on recommendation of the National Park Service can control the prices. The prices are regulated by the Government.

Mr. NORRELL. If that is true, would not the same situation be true that a monopoly in any field would prove more efficient and more satisfactory to the public than competition?

Mr. DRURY. Well, a natural monopoly exists in most of our national parks; that is, they cannot do business on the basis, frankly, of competitive enterprise, as commercial activities could do it in a normal community. People are there as guests of the Government. It is the obligation primarily of the Government to see that they are properly treated, that they get the service that they are entitled to, that they enjoy themselves, and that they are not overcharged for service. Just as in the case of any public utility that is a natural monopoly, regulation by the Government has been shown, I think, to be in the public interest.

Mr. NORRELL. Yes, regulation, but you would not be willing to eliminate competition in the United States?

Mr. DRURY. Oh, no, indeed, and we have, of course, as you know, at Hot Springs many concessionaires, and in two or three of the other parks we have several of them, but in general, as I say, the matter is determined on the basis of what serves the public interest, and in general it has been found that a strong, well-equipped concessionaire does, if properly regulated.

Mr. NORRELL. Where is the largest number of hotels located in any one park area?

Mr. DRURY. At Yellowstone National Park.

Mr. NORRELL. How many houses, or hotels, or whatever you call them, do you have in Yellowstone?

Mr. DRURY. Let me introduce Mr. Taylor and have him give that information to you.

Mr. TAYLOR. We have only one in Yellowstone.

Mr. NORRELL. How many?

Mr. TAYLOR. We have one in Yellowstone.

Mr. NORRELL. I have been to Yellowstone National Park, and I visited more than that.

Mr. TAYLOR. I thought you were asking about the number of concessioners furnishing sleeping accommodations.

Mr. NORRELL. How many places where guests can sleep do you have in Yellowstone National Park?

Mr. TAYLOR. About 13 different places.

Mr. NORRELL. How many public eating places do you have in Yellowstone National Park?

Mr. TAYLOR. I would have to count them up.

Mr. NORRELL. Just approximately how many?

Mr. TAYLOR. Probably 10.

Mr. NORRELL. All of those 13 sleeping houses and 10 eating houses are operated by 1 man?

Mr. TAYLOR. No; not all of the eating houses. We have three other concessionaires who operate certain eating places.

Mr. NORRELL. Do you find competition interferes with the service to the general public in your eating houses in Yellowstone National Park?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, they are operated in different localities.

Mr. NORRELL. Of course.

Mr. TAYLOR. Some in connection with another business.

Mr. NORRELL. It is not harmful to the park operations, is it?

Mr. TAYLOR. Those small eating houses; no.

Mr. NORRELL. How many stores do you have in Yellowstone where you can buy little trinkets the tourists would want to pick up, or even more substantial articles!

Mr. TAYLOR. I think there are 8 or 10.

Mr. NORRELL. Are they operated by one person or a number of different people?

Mr. TAYLOR. Mostly by one person; but, in some places, another concessionaire operates.

Mr. NORRELL. Do you have two concessionaires, that is, two different individuals operating in Yellowstone National Park?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. NORRELL. Who are they?

Mr. TAYLOR. There is Hamilton-well, in fact, there are three. There is Hamilton, and Pryor & Trischman. Pryor & Trischman operate a small souvenir place and grocery store and serve meals, and they carry on throughout the winter.

Mr. NORRELL. What about some of your other parks; is that same situation existing in those other parks?

Mr. TAYLOR. To some extent, but not to quite the extent it is in Yellowstone.

Mr. NORRELL. It is true, is it not, that you keep down competition to a very great extent-I won't say as much as possible, because you could not eliminate all competition.

Mr. TAYLOR. We do, sir; that is true.

Mr. NORRELL. And it is not the policy of your Interior Department to encourage or even allow any more competition in these different park areas than can really be prevented; is not that correct, or substantially correct?

Mr. TAYLOR. It is not for the purpose of not allowing competition. We go on the basis of trying to give the best service to the public and we find that most of our places are comparatively small and we need to assign areas for development and, in many places, the areas are not such as to lend themselves to numerous competitors.

Mr. NORRELL. Does it prove financially beneficial to the Government to have more or less of a monopoly existing in these park areas; do you get more revenue?

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I have no comparison.

Mr. NORRELL. Will you put in the record at this point the total receipts from your concessionaires, those individuals doing business in the park areas, for the last concluded fiscal year?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir. The only concluded fiscal year we have is 1944; ours are broken down by calendar years, rather than fiscal years. Franchise fees amounting to $95,086.73 were received in 1944.

PERMITS FOR USE OF HOT WATER IN HOT SPRINGS NATIONAL PARK

Mr. NORRELL. Now, getting down to the Hot Springs National Park; how long has it been since you granted additional permits for use of hot water in the park in Arkansas?

Mr. TAYLOR. March 1, 1922, for 11 tubs to Supreme Lodge, Woodwin of Union.

Mr. NORRELL. And then will you state what constitutes the present policy in the use of water in that park?

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir. We have a printed statement of policy on that.

Mr. NORRELL. In as few words as possible, give the reason for that policy.

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe I am going to refer you to Mr. Patraw, who understands that better than I.

Mr. PATRAW. Congressman, there were at one time a total of about 26 concessionaires at Hot Springs which operated baths, and it was found there were more concessionaires than could profitably operate. And during the period of years, beginning about 1918, some of those concessionaires went out because they were not able to operate profitably. And when I first came to Hot Springs in 1922, that number had been reduced to about 20, as nearly as I recall. Subsequently others have gone out until today I believe there are about 17 operators. Mr. NORRELL. Do I understand the reason you do not allow an expansion today is that you are afraid the concessionaires will not make sufficient money to remain in business?

Mr. PATRAW. Any additional concessionaires at Hot Springs would distribute the revenue over several places and there probably would be an over-all increased cost of operation without any increase in the volume of business.