Mr. Muck. Of course, if the legislation is enacted. Under the existing law we have to pay for surplus equipment just the same as we do for any other equipment that we buy.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Yes, I realize that, but you would pay a lower price, you would get it about half the price you would probably pay for new equipment.

Mr. Muck. We have not bought enough equipment as yet, where this surplus has been declared, to know just how the prices do run. We purchased less than $16,000 worth of equipment in the last 3 years. We have held down on our equipment items.

Mr. DWORSHAK. There is also an extensive soil conservation service in the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Muck. Yes, that is right.

Mr. DWORSHAK. And you have no conflict with them, and there is no duplication?

Mr. Muck. That is right.

Mr. DWORSHAK. You merely direct these operations on lands on the public domain?

Mr. MUCK. That is right.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Outside of these other soil conservation districts? Mr. Muck It is separated on the basis of land under the jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior and all other public and private lands.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Where does the Forest Service come in?

Mr. Muck. They come in under the Agricultural Department Soil Conservation Service.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Under Agriculture?

Mr. MUCK. Yes, sir; and we have been operating under a cooperative agreement between the Department of Agriculture and the Department of the Interior which authorizes complete cooperation and eliminates any possible duplication.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Do I have the correct impression in thinking that you do not operate on any privately owned land?

Mr. Muck. Yes, sir; none whatsoever. The only lands that we operate on that ultimately will become privately owned lands are the lands still in public ownership within the irrigation districts. There is quite a substantial area of such lands under lease. The way we operate on these areas is to require stipulations in the leases which provide for sound practices.

EXTENT OF RECOVERIES FOR COST OF PROGRAM

Mr. DWORSHAK. Then I heard you say in your statement a few minutes ago that you tried to recover about 50 percent of the cost of this program from the actual users. Is that correct?

Mr. KAVANAGH. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. DWORSHAK. How do you accomplish that?

Mr. KAVANAGH. In developing a project we ask you as a stockmar or as a user of a piece of land where a project lies to come in and cooperate with us in correcting critical erosion that exists there. It may be that you will contribute labor or materials or actual cash in some instances. We want you to become interested in that piece o public land and to feel that you have some of your own money in

there and to see that the job is done with acceptability and that you will try to keep it that way.

Mr. DWORSHAK. You say that you endeavor to recover 50 percent of the cost. What is your actual record of recovery during the past 2 or 3 years; what percentage of it do you recover?

Mr. KAVANAGH. It varies with the different agencies. Some of them have not any private land inside the public domain and others do have.

Mr. DWORSHAK. I think that is very important because too frequently the impression grows that the Federal Government, through these various agencies on the public domain, should come in and assume the full responsibility for all of these programs which are very important, like this one, and I think it is imperative that you impress upon those taxpayers who receive the direct benefits of it that they should make contributions in order to justify the continued expenditure of Federal funds in protecting the public domain and in making its beneficial use available, because unless you do that you will encounter a lot of trouble, because these people merely assume that they have the right to enjoy all these privileges and these rights without any personal obligation on their part.

Mr. Muck. We can give you some pretty good examples of that, Mr. Dworshak. You are probably pretty familiar with Nez Perce and the Coeur d'Alene areas.

Mr. DWORSHAK. No, not too much.

Mr. MUCK. I do not suppose there is any better farm land in the United States than in that area in northern Idaho and in southern Washington.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Those are privately owned lands?

Mr. MUCK. No; there are a lot of Indian lands in that area. Much of this Indian land is under lease to whites, and we require them to sign stipulations in the leases providing for the doing of this type of conservation work, so that the contributions are largely in the way of labor and the furnishing of materials and supplies.

Mr. DWORSHAK. I assume, Mr. Muck, that there is urgent need for your current program, if not for its actual extension, because there have been not only neglected areas in the past but actual exploitation of areas by users of the public domain, so, consequently, if you are to attain the objectives you have in mind you must not only stop this exploitation but insist upon the cooperation of the beneficiaries of the public domain.

Mr. MUCK. That is right. It is the only way that you can get the program across, by getting cooperation.

Mr. DWORSHAK. That is your responsibility, and as a member of this committee I share the views of other members of the committee that this is a highly important program, but likewise I believe that you will not be successful in it unless you do keep constantly in mind the fact that you must have the active cooperation of those who receive the benefits of it. The public domain belongs to the people compositely, and it is your responsibility to protect your nearly 300,000,000 acres of land which is under the jurisdiction of the Interior Department and to see to it that the public does receive benefits and to see to it that exploitation is eliminated to as large an extent as possible.

Mr. MUCK. Yes, we are in total agreement with that, sir. I can assure you that has been our policy from the beginning.

Mr. KAVANAGH. In the Western States where most of our operations are under way, the States are contributing from their 50-percent funds to most of those projects, in addition to the private cooperation.

Mr. DWORSHAK. And the State also endeavors to see that you do get the cooperation of the private users of this land?

Mr. KAVANAGH. Yes, sir.

Mr. Muck. Yes, sir; that is true; it is a cooperative program.

EMPLOYMENT OF UNNECESSARY AND UNQUALIFIED PERSONNEL

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Do you have anyone on the pay rol who is not actually performing work essential to your activities? Mr. MUCK. No.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. If you were ordered by the Secretary o the Interior to place someone on your pay roll whom you had reason to believe, or even suspected, was not qualified to perform the work fo which he or she was to be appointed, would you do so without pro testing?

Mr. MUCK. No.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. If anyone were placed on your pay ro at the direction of the Secretary of the Interior and performed n essential work, for which he or she was paid, would you permit such person to remain on your pay roll for 4 years and 11 months or fo even a shorter period of time and then ask the President to give suc a person a medal of merit?

Mr. MUCK. No.

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1946.

COMMISSION OF FINE ARTS

STATEMENT OF H. P. CAEMMERER, SECRETARY AND ADMINIS TRATIVE OFFICER

SALARIES AND EXPENSES

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. The committee will next consider th item for the Commission of Fine Arts. Mr. H. P. Caemmere secretary, is present. I note your estimate for 1947 is for $11,90 Mr. CAEMMERER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Which, if allowed, would be a ne increase of $4,260 over your 1946 appropriation.

Mr. CAEMMERER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. That includes pay act money, does i Mr. CAEMMERER. Yes, sir.

JUSTIFICATION OF THE ESTIMATE

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Do you have a very brief statement make to the committee?

Mr. CAEMMERER. Yes; I have a statement here that I would li to insert in the record.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. We will insert portions of it in th record.

The membership of the Commission of Fine Arts consists of Mr. Gilmore D. Clarke, landscape architect and Chairman; Mr. David E. Finley, Vice Chairman and art critic; Mr. William Truman Aldrich, architect; Mr. L. Andrew Reinhard, architect; Mr. Maurice Sterne, painter; Mr. Frederick V. Murphy, architect; and Mr. Lee Lawrie, sculptor.

The members are appointed by the President and serve without compensation, being reimbursed only for their travel expenses. Since the creation of the Commission of Fine Arts by the Congress on May 17, 1910, the artist members have been drawn from the representative men of their several professions-men of training, experience, and achievement; and considerate in dealing with other artists. They give freely of their time out of patriotic devotion and their interest in maintaining standards in the fine arts of this country.

ESTIMATE FOR 1947

The total requested under this appropriation for 1947 is $11,900, or a net increase of $4,152. The reasons for the increases are stated in the succeeding paragraphs: Clerk-stenographer, CAF-3, $1,902.-There are at present two employees, the secretary to the Commission and a messenger. During a period of more than 10 years before the war, the Commission always had three employees, as provision was made for a stenographer who also had clerical duties, at the time of the enactment of the Shipstead-Luce Act, in 1930, under which the Commission is given a limited control over private buildings in the District of Columbia. Due to decreased private buildings operations and fine-arts activities on account of the war, the Commission dispensed with this position during the war period, and made a financial contribution to that extent to the war effort. Now that the war is over a clerk-stenographer is urgently needed to assist in the greatly increased duties of the Commission.

Within-grade promotions, $286.-This amount is requested to cover the cost of within-grade promotions becoming effective during the fiscal year 1946.

Travel expenses, $1,740.-The increase requested will provide a total of $2,325 for payment of the travel expenses of members of the Commission when attending meetings. The members frequently have considerable distances to travel to attend these meetings, which involve large transportation costs.

The total requested will provide for only 72 days of travel, or an average of 12 travel-days for each of the six members at an average cost of approximately $30 a travel-day, and $165 for emergency use of the Chairman and the secretary for estimated necessary travel expenses to meet special requirements of the Commission.

Other expenses, $547.—This increase is apportioned to the following objects of expenditure to cover slight increases in operating expenses:

Communication services..

Printing and binding...

Other contractual services (photostating and blueprinting, etc.)
Supplies and materials__

Total...

$105

100

190

152

547

PROJECTS CONSIDERED IN 1945

A list of the more important projects which came before the Commission of Fine Arts during the fiscal year 1945 is as follows:

Proposed United States military cemeteries; conference with Col. Harbold, Office of the Quartermaster General, requested by the War Department. Arlington National Cemetery extension.

Design for emergency reception quarters, Union Station.

Arlington Memorial Bridge, restoration of Memorial Avenue.

Klingle Road Bridge; design submitted by the Highway Department, District of Columbia.

South Capitol Street Bridge; design.

New Navy Department Building; conference with Public Buildings Administration regarding project.

Lt. Gen. McNair plaque; advice requested as to artist and design by Army War College Staff.

Grand Army of Republic tablet for the Arlington Memorial Amphitheater authorized by Congress.

Clara Barton Memorial for the National Capital; application from the National
Auxiliary United Spanish War Veterans.
New Fourteenth Street Bridge project.

Approval of design for two four-lane bridges, one for outgoing and one for incoming traffic. Hearings held before Subcommittee of Interstate and Foreign Commerce of the House of Representatives.

National Memorial Stadium, as proposed by Public Law No. 523, Seventy-eighth Congress.

East Capitol Street development plan.

Temple Heights development.

Subways for the National Capital; consideration of report of transportation survey by the District of Columbia Highway Department.

Admiral Peary medals, authorized by Congress, to commemorate discovery of the North Pole by Admiral Peary, 1909; models submitted by the Navy Depart

ment.

Design for Parkside School Building, submitted by the Municipal Architect, as well as for Fort Reno water tower.

Models for Women's Army Auxiliary Corps medal; submitted by the General Staff, War Department.

Laboratory for the Public Health Service, at Bethesda, Md., design.

Potomac River power project; threat to ruin landscape features of the Potomac
River Valley from Washington to Great Falls.

District of Columbia World War II memorial; proposed design.
Army Medical Museum and Library Building; design.

Portrait of President Garfield for the White House, offered by the family; advice requested by President Roosevelt.

Additional building for Suitland, Md.; design.

Bridges for the Washington-Baltimore Parkway.

Statue of Nathan Hale, given by the late George D. Seymour, of New Haven, to the National Capital.

Portrait of President Franklin D. Roosevelt for the White House.

Laboratory Building Pediatric Building for Gallinger Hospital. Designs submitted by the Municipal Architect.

Inspection of works of art for the Freer Art Gallery.

Advice requested on House Joint Resolution 182, for World War Memorial by Representative Lanham, chairman, House Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds.

House Joint Resolution 191; paintings of Chiefs of Staff. Advice requested by Representative O'Toole, chairman of the Committee on the Library, House of Representatives.

Civilian medal, design submitted by Major General Hershey, Director of Selective Service, for medal under Public Law 112, Seventy-ninth Congress, approved July 2, 1945.

Haym Salomon Memorial, authorized by Public Resolution 124, Seventy-fourth Congress, approved June 23, 1936. Advice requested by former Senator Gillette.

Pan American annex; design.

Portrait of former Secretary of Agriculture Wickard; advice requested as to an artist to paint the portrait for the Department of Agriculture.