Bureau of Navigation, meet that operating force plan by supplying the personnel in order to man the ships.

So far as requirements for treaty strength, it is true that we will have to have additional personnel to man the treaty Navy when the treaty Navy is complete.

I do not know exactly how this number of 111,000 that you speak of was estimated. That was done some time ago. I do not believe there will be any great increases in enlisted personnel from now until treaty strength is reached. There will be some, by reason of the fact that some of the ships coming on are more or less replacement ships, whereas the addition to the Navy has been more or less completed up to the present time in new ships built. I am speaking more particularly of the heavy cruisers, 18 of them, which have been completed. There are a certain number of 6-inch gun cruisers which will be coming along. Some of them are allowed for in this personnel allowance by reason of the fact that those ships are going in commission next year.

Of the plane carriers, there will be one, the Wasp, which will be coming on. The Yorktown and the Enterprise are now nearing completion. We have ordered quite a number of men to them. We are allowing, in a way, for certain complement for those ships.

Now, to speak perfectly frankly, I think it is pretty hard to estimate in advance the actual number of men that we will require in 1941, because each year an operating force plan is made out. If it be considered advisable, certain ships may be placed in reduced complements; certain ships may be decommissioned. So it is a variable quantity, depending upon the number of ships actually in commission with the fleet or employed. Our best estimate now of the treaty strength enlisted force will approximate 118,000 men.

Mr. UMSTEAD. Admiral, I believe, if my memory be correct, that Admiral Leahy stated a few days ago that the Navy Department has had no difficulty under the provision made for enlisted men during the present fiscal year. It is not your intention, I take it, to man the fleet with a complement beyond 85 percent in peacetime. Admiral ANDREWS. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. UMSTEAD. So, assuming that the 85 percent peace-time complement is sufficient, and is what you intend to maintain, then the sole question with which we are confronted is the number of enlisted men to attain the 85 percent complement for vessels now in the fleet and those which will be added to the Fleet within the fiscal year 1939?

Admiral ANDREWS. That is correct, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. I referred yesterday, Admiral, to the withdrawal from the appropriation for pay, subsistence, and transportation of personnel of $4,500,000, and the placing of that sum in the so-called administrative reserve, and also referred to the explanation of that actiton given by the officers of the Navy.

Admiral ANDREWS. Yes, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. The fiscal year of 1938 is almost at the half-way mark, and if no trouble has been experienced in consequence of the inability of the department to add enlisted personnel up until this date, during this fiscal year, as it intended to do, because of the administrative reserve, then it would appear, would it not, that there is no problem at the present time in the Navy Department of a shortage in enlisted personnel?

Admiral ANDREWS. That is quite true; sir. We have to meet these conditions as they come about. If we get an order to take off a certain percentage as a reserve, we have to cut our cloth accordingly. Of course, in view of that, we have held our enlistments so that we could meet those conditions; and it also affects the enlisted personnel insofar as advancement in ratings goes. That is all. Those are factors having to do with this amount of money.

NO DIFFICULTY EXPERIENCED IN MEETING ENLISTED MEN REQUIREMENTS

Mr. UMSTEAD. Admiral, you have had a considerable number of new vessels to commission in the past 8 calendar months, have you not?

Admiral ANDREWS. Yes, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. And you have experienced no difficulty up to this time in meeting the enlisted personnel requirements of those vessels? Admiral ANDREWS. That is right, sir.

COMMISSIONING OF LIGHT CRUISERS

Mr. UMSTEAD. When will the light cruisers Nashville, Phoenix, and St. Louis be ready to have their crews go aboard?

Admiral ANDREWS. We have three cruisers going into commission, the Savannah about February 15, 1938, the Honolulu about the first of May 1938, and the Boise in about June 1938. Then these other ships will come along, the Nashville will be in commission about July 1938 and the Phoenix is also building, but will not be in commission until about November 1, 1938. The St. Louis is building and will be in commission about April 1, 1939. This provision of increase in men was to provide crews for the latter three ships.

BASIS FOR ENLISTED MEN ESTIMATE FOR 1937 AND 1938

Mr. UMSTEAD. Admiral, your estimates for enlisted personnel submitted to this committee for the fiscal years of 1937 and 1938 were based upon what you then thought the progress of the building program would be?

Admiral ANDREWS. That is correct, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. It is true, is it not, that the building program slowed up more during the fiscal year 1937 and so far in 1938 than was anticipated by the Department?

Admiral ANDREWS. Correct, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. For the fiscal year 1937 you received substantial appropriations, as requested, for enlisted personnel?

Admiral ANDREWS. Yes, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. For 1938 your estimates were reduced an average of 500 men?

Admiral ANDREWS. That is right.

Mr. UMSTEAD. Is it not true, therefore, that the number heretofore provided, considering the slack in the building program, has been more than adequate to take care, up until this time, of the new requirements by reason of the increase in the building program?

Admiral ANDREWS. I would not say that it has been more than adequate, Mr. Chairman, because we have had, and we have used, and

it has been necessary to use, these increased numbers of enlisted men in the last 2 or 3 years. It is quite true, as you state, that in making out our advance estimate we figure on certain ships going in commission at certain times, and it is also true that we have experienced considerable delay in these ships.

Everything is being done at present, as perhaps Admiral Leahy has told you, to hurry up and to get these ships on time and to have them delivered and go in commission, as we estimate they will, but there is a possibility that there may be delays.

Mr. UMSTEAD. It is really more than a possibility, is it not, Admiral? It is a fact that the delivery dates of most of the ships have been

deferred?

Admiral ANDREWS. Yes, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. And are being further deferred?

Admiral ANDREWS. Yes, sir. That is a possibility.

Mr. UMSTEAD. Of course, you can appreciate the fact that this committee realizes that the necessary enlisted personnel should be provided?

Admiral ANDREWS. Yes, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. If we are to build vessels, they are useless unless they are properly manned?

Admiral ANDREWS. Yes, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. At the same time, it is the duty of this committee, as best we can, to keep the requirements for enlisted personnel in line with the actual needs of the Navy; and it seems to me that this question of enlisted personnel is a very important one. I recognize, along with that statement, the difficulty which you gentlemen have in accurately estimating 12 or 18 months in advance, particularly in view of the building situation, your needs for a given period in the future.

Admiral ANDREWS. Yes, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. Admiral, with reference to the destroyers which are now being built, are you asking for any men for destroyers ahead of the time when they will be needed?

Admiral ANDREWS. No, sir. We are not asking for any ahead of the time when we anticipate they will be needed. The fact of the whole thing is that we have made a very close and concise study here of these enlistment requirements, and we have not added any number of men here to meet conditions that we think will probably not exist.

Mr. UMSTEAD, Admiral, I believe that Admiral Standley was the source of the estimate of 111,000 men.

Admiral ANDREWS. I believe he was; yes, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. I take it that before he gave that estimate to this. committee a study was made of the subject, and that somewhere in the Department there should be some evidence of the basis upon which he made that estimate.

Admiral ANDREWS. Yes, sir.

Mr. UMSTEAD. If you could investigate that matter and check it, I should like for you to submit to this committee, if you can find it, the basis upon which he made that determination.

Admiral ANDREWS I am, in general, familiar with that, sir, but not with the detail of it. I remember very distinctly, although I was not here at the time, that he did make the estimate, and at the

same time he made an estimate upon the cost of a treaty navy. That was probably a distant estimate. The nearer we get to a treaty navy, the more accurate our estimate becomes.

In general, in computing the estimate of the treaty navy, as of January 8, our computation-provided everything goes as we planwill be about 118,000 men.

Mr. UMSTEAD. Seven thousand in excess of the estimate made by Admiral Standley about 4 years ago?

Admiral ANDREWS. Yes, sir. He made that in February 1935, for the 1936 bill.

Mr. UMSTEAD. That would be 2 years ago.

Admiral ANDREWS. Nearly 3 years ago.

We are studying this all the time, and I can give you the following results of our study:

Admiral Standley's estimate called for 111,010 men; our latest estimate for 118,356. On comparison of the two estimates there are almost identical numbers of combatant ships in both. There are, in the present estimate, three more gunboats, and some increase in the auxiliary necessary to operate the treaty navy, principally one additional destroyer tender, larger seaplane tenders, and eight more mine sweepers. The main increases in the present estimate, aside from the 2,400 necessary for these vessels, are in the allowances of the new types of vessels. In the early estimate we had no experience upon which to base fully the allowances for the new light cruisers and destroyers. Further experience has shown these must be increased a total of nearly 1,000 for the 17 cruisers and over 2,000 for the 96 destroyers. An increased shore establishment allowance, due in part to aviation base activities, accounts for an 1,800 increase.

With respect now to the 1939 estimates, we will then be operating less than the treaty navy by one aircraft carrier, by carrying three battleships in reduced commission, and by several auxiliaries. This disparity, together with a slightly less sea and shore aviation program, results in the 7,800 less needed for 1939 than for the treaty navy. The 1939 estimate of 110,570 is, as I have stated, carefully compiled from the basic data of the exact ships, by number and name, to be operated in that year, and the allowance of men for each. This allowance is 85 percent generally, though higher, up to 100 percent, for submarines, repair ships, and ships on the Asiatic station.

DELAY IN BUILDING PROGRAM

Mr. DITTER. To what extent, Admiral, was the building program delayed during the past year?

Admiral ANDREWS. I think it was about 5 months, sir; but that is a matter that I would have to look into.

Mr. DITTER. Could it be resolved into percentage, would you say? In other words, assuming 100 percent as the full contemplated program of construction, could you estimate approximately to what degree that 100 percent had been slowed down or delayed?

Admiral ANDREWS. I think we could get from the Bureau of Construction and Repair the exact figures on that, Mr. Ditter, showing the actual delay in all of these ships.

Mr. DITTER. Thank you.

Admiral ANDREWS. I understand that the Chief of Bureau of Construction and Repair and of Engineering will present a complete statement on this matter, and in order to avoid repetition here, I respectfully refer to that statement.

INCREASE IN FLEET AIRCRAFT PERSONNEL

Mr. TнOм. I notice in your table in the general statement that you indicate an increase in personnel of the fleet aircraft from 4,725 to 6,371.

Admiral ANDREWS. The figure 4,725 is as of September 30, 1937. At the end of this fiscal year we expect to have 5,593. The increase in 1939 is largely on account of the heavy patrol planes going into commission.

Mr. THOM. How many planes do you expect to have?

Admiral ANDREWS. In all there will be about 1,048. That includes the increase in planes, the Yorktown, the Enterprise, and other increases in the fleet, and the patrol planes; it goes from 927 at the end of 1938 to 1,048.

Mr. TнOм. That involves an increase of about 1,300 men?

Admiral ANDREWS. From the September 30, 1937 figure, yes, sir, but less than 800 from the June 30, 1938 figure.

ENLISTED MEN MOVING TO STATIONS FOR DUTY

Mr. THOм. I notice on page 45 you have an item "At sea, in transit," referring to enlisted personnel, showing a decrease from 1,836 to 1.287. What is the nature of that decrease?

Captain ABBETT. The distribution as of September 30, 1937, is an actual figure. Two transports were at sea at the time. They were going back and forth across the Pacific to supply the forces in the Asiatic.

The other is an estimate only, and is an average estimate. We think that this year has a great deal of activity in that line, on account of the troubled state of affairs in the Far East. We have both the Chaumont and the Henderson working on that run now.

Mr. THOм. That item involves the men who are moving to their stations of duty; who are not actually charged to any ship?

Captain ABBETT. Yes, sir; who are not actively charged to any ship or any other activity. They are afloat, and belong in the forces afloat, but they are moving around, and their services are not available.

Mr. THOм. Do you mean to say you are going to have, during the next year, 1,200 men that have not reached their destination, and are on the seas going somewhere?

Captain ABBETT. That is an average, sir, and it is based on our experience over a great number of years. For instance, when the Chaumont makes a trip to the Asiatic station she carries 1,200 men. She carries 1,200 out and comes back with approximately that number. Mг. THOм. Those are marines, are they not?

Captain ABBETT. Not necessarily. In this case, on one trip she took marines. On her return trip she will be bringing naval personnel. The Henderson, on the contrary, carried a thousand regular Navy enlisted men when she went out.

Those are examples showing that this is going on, but they are not the only examples, and they really only take care of, say, 1,200 men for