obtain wholesale power from an existing source at a reasonable rate have failed. Inasmuch as the dollar amount of applications for loans to build distribution lines is normally in excess of available funds and it is good business to buy power when the price is reasonable, the Rural Electrification Administration finances generating plants only as a last resort.

I think this is an important statement of Mr. Slattery: "The dollar amount of applications for loans is normally in excess of available funds." And, I might say that condition exists in practically every congressional district in the United States wherein the R. E. A. operates. There are mile after mile of poles awaiting the copper to string wire on them to take electricity into the homes that are already wired, in many instances.

Yet we find R. E. A. today with enormous quantities of copper stored in Texas to be used in the construction of approximately 300 miles of transmission lines to connect up seven cooperatives in east Texas with a generating plant to be built by R. E. A. at a future date at Gilmer, Tex. Up until a few days ago the ground had not been broken to start construction of the generating plant. Yet R. E. A. says it is now stringing the wire for these transmission lines.

These seven R. E. A. cooperatives are now receiving their power from existing facilities at one of the lowest wholesale rates for R. E. A. cooperatives in the country-812 mills.

In a statement I made last Monday in the House I cited photographs to prove that R. E. A. had acquired enormous quantities of copper which will not be used in less than 2 years, in the sense that it could be energized from the proposed Gilmer generating plant; that this copper would not illuminate a single additional new farm home inasmuch as it is heavy cable transmission line. While at the same time thousands of miles of poles have been set by local R. E. A. cooperatives awaiting copper to energize and bring the benefits of electricity to thousands of American farm homes.

The R. E. A. has informed these potential users of R. E. A. power that copper for these unstrung poles is not available because of national-defense requirements and because the dollar-a-year men in O. P. M. are denying copper to R. E. A. while permitting private utilities to have copper.

I have inquired of some of the private utilities operating in my State of Kansas, and they have informed me that O. P. M. allows no copper to private companies for expansion, either rural or urban except when it is necessary for national defense projects or for the maintenance of existing capacity.

Mr. TARVER. The fact seems to be pretty well established that many power companies, with good business foresight, and who are not to be criticized for looking after their interest, acquired a considerable quantity of copper prior to the coming about of the present emergency and have on hand these reserve supplies of copper which they are using in the construction of lines of a similar type to lines constructed by the R. E. A. cooperatives. Thus, by their furnishing the type of service that the R. E. A. was created to furnish at a time when the R. E. A. cooperatives are unable to furnish it because of the scarcity of copper, one of the questions before the committee has been whether or not some action ought not to be taken to require the delivery into a common pool of all supplies of copper in this

country so the copper might be allocated in accordance with the needs of national defense without regard to present ownership.

We have requested but have not as yet been furnished the information as to the particular quantities of copper owned by any private power concern; that information is being compiled, according to a communication we have from the Metals Division. However, an official of the O. P. M. was before the committee a few days ago, Mr. Church, and volunteered without the solicitation of the committee to submit a letter from General Hinds claiming the existence of the condition about which you are testifying. In other words, the only definite information we have received to date concerning the amount of copper held by power companies and R. E. A. cooperatives has been that furnished with reference to the one case in Texas where it was alleged that copper is in the hands of R. E. A. cooperatives and is not being used. That is a subject matter concerning which we expect to have further investigation.

I have been impressed-and I do not speak for the other members of the committee with the facility with which information is furnished to the committee concerning the R. E. A. cooperatives' possession of copper in one instance and the lack of information with regard to such copper as is owned by private utility companies.

I assume from your statement that you would not favor the hoarding of copper either by private power companies or by R. E. A. cooperatives?

Mr. WINTER. I most certainly would not, and I expect to cover that very point in my statement.

Mr. TARVER. You favor the utilization of all copper resources for the purpose of the needs of national defense.

Mr. WINTER. For national-defense purposes. And, I might say to you, Mr. Chairman, in speaking about the foresight of these various private utilities in the purchase of this copper before the priorities were placed on copper, that the copper which is to be used in the transmission lines to connect up these seven Texas cooperatives centering around Gilmer, Tex., was unloaded the first week of October 1941 from a 23-car train load. And that copper was ordered just 24 hours before the deadline on the priority of copper.

Congressman Rankin, Secretary of Agriculture Wickard, and R. E. A. Administrator Slattery, in denying the charges which I made, admit that there is a million pounds of copper stored in Texas with which to connect up these seven cooperatives if and when the Gilmer generating plant is built. Now, they say that I am wrong in my statement that there are millions and millions of pounds, but I have conclusive proof to me and I will have pictures of it for you later on showing they have copper stored at many of these places in Texas at the present time and that it does run into considerably more than a million pounds of copper.

If R. E. A. admits that it has stored away even as much as a million pounds of sorely needed copper one of the major purposes for an investigation of R. E. A. has been established. Most certainly R. E. A. should be made to prove that its right to use this copper is paramount to the Nation's defense program.

Administrator Slattery says that R. E. A. does not legally possess and own the copper now being hoarded. There is one thing certain,

this copper was bought for and under contract with R. E. A. and could not have been purchased otherwise and when energized will be paid for by R. E. A. The very hypocricy of this pretext is an admission of guilt.

It might be interesting to note that this Gilmer copper was ordered only 48 hours ahead of the deadline on copper priority. I agree with Secretary Wickard when he asserted that private utilities, which he claims have large inventories of copper, should not be permitted to preempt territory that otherwise would go to R. E. A. cooperatives if R. E. A. is denied copper to serve the same territory. In my opinion copper should be considered as an indispensible commodity to be used only for provable defense projects or the maintenance and repair of existing facilities, public or private. If private utilities have been hoarding copper they should be treated on exactly the same basis as a public utility caught redhanded hoarding copper. O. P. M. should have the authority to confiscate copper whenever it is being hoarded.

The truth of the matter is that for want of these transmission lines, which R. E. A. wants to build from the Gilmer plant with this hoarded copper, no national-defense project will go short of electricity.

In considering an appropriation for R. E. A. for the fiscal year of 1942 it would seem appropriate, before decision is made, that the following question be answered specifically, categorically and without evasion by R. E. A.:

First, how many miles of transmission lines do R. E. A. cooperatives or contractors for such cooperatives now own, operate, or have let contracts for?

Secondly, how many miles of transmission lines do R. E. A. cooperatives expect, assuming priorities will be granted, to build in addition to the above between now and the end of the fiscal year 1942, and where?

Third, how many miles of transmission line is contemplated to be constructed by R. E. A. cooperatives during the fiscal year 1943 and where?

Fourth, how many of these transmission lines duplicate existing facilities?

Fifth, how many generating plants does R. E. A. contemplate constructing during this period and where?

Sixth, translate all of the above into (a) pounds of copper; (b) pounds of other strategic material and (c) miles of rural distribution lines which the same quantity of copper would build if not used for high-tension transmission lines.

I am convinced if R. E. A. were required to do this that you would find that in my part of the country R. E. A. has a contemplated program which calls for the expenditures of approximately $75,000,000 in the construction of a system superimposed upon and duplicating existing privately owned lines serving in the southwest.

Mr. James D. Donovan, production manager for the Kansas City, Kan., municipal light and power plant, recently stated:

That word had reached him of an Rural Electrification Administration plan to establish two or three electric generating stations in Kansas for the purpose of supplying electric current to feeder lines of Rural Electrification Administra

tion now supplied by local municipal or privately owned plants. That the only justification for building such new generating stations would be a lack of existing capacity or the refusal of municipal or privately owned plants to supply Rural Electrification Administration lines.

Mr. Donovan further stated that

A recent survey of the State by the Federal Power Commission indicates the supply of electricity is adequate and that he had no knowledge of a plant refusing to furnish service to Rural Electrification Administration.

I do not advocate the elimination of the appropriation for the administration of R. E. A. However, if R. E. A. by reason of the defense program must curtail its activities there is no reason why some reduction in this appropriation could not be made. Secretary Morgenthau of the Treasury has pointed out that the nondefense expenditures for rural electrification might well be dispensed with during the ensuing year. This was in a memorandum submitted to the Joint Committee on Nondefense Expenditures dated November 14. Under such a recommendation only a skeleton staff would be retained by the administration here in Washington for the period of the emergency.

Administrator Slattery in a recent editorial in the R. E. A. Rural Electrification News said:

That to the extent that copper and other materials are needed for defense, they will not be available for R. E. A.'s normal line building.

This statement would indicate that R. E. A. could, during the emergency, get along with less funds for administrative purposes.

ALLEGED COMMUNISTS ON RURAL ELECTRIFICATION ADMINISTRATION PAY ROLI

In conclusion I most vehemently object to $115,720 of this requested appropriation for R. E. A. for the reason that it would go to pay the salaries of 34 Communists here in the R. E. A. here in Washington. I have the names, addresses, salaries, and positions of these 34 people, furnished me by the Dies committee and I would be glad to turn a copy of this list over to this committee. It will be interesting to note that one member on the list has been investing his money in Soviet bonds.

And, I think it is a very serious thing that Members of Congress have to sit around and appropriate money to pay the salary of men whom a committee of the House has proven are Communists.

Mr. TARVER. I agree with the gentleman that there should not be any Communists employed in any agency of the Government of the Uited States; but with reference to the purchase of Soviet bonds I believe our country is making a considerable investment in the future of Russia with the view that is is necessary for our own protection.

Mr. WINTER. Yes; but I think you will find that this man got his bonds a long time before this country got mixed up with Russia.

Mr. TARVER. The committee would like to have you amplify your remarks by furnishing us a list of the employees.

Mr. WINTER. The 34 I referred to?

Mr. TARVER. Yes.

(The list of names referred to is as follows:)

EMPLOYEES LISTED BY THE DIES COMMITTEE AS BEING COMMUNISTS

RURAL ELECTRIFICATION ADMINISTRATION

Bray, W. Joseph, 711 North Arlington, Arlington, Va.; assistant attorney; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; $2,500.

Froderick, Raymond J., 1769 Church NW., Washington, D. C.; associate attorney; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $3.200.

Cohen, David, 2411 Fourteenth Street NW., Washington, D. C.; Chief, Statistical Survey Unit; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; member, Washington Book Shop; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; member. Emergency Peace Mobilization; $3,800.

Ereza, Laura Fanny, 1761 Hobart Street NW., Washington, D. C.; stenographer; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $1,680.

Farage, David, 1719 Q Street NW., Washington, D. C.; junior stenographer; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $1,500.

Foss, Kendall, 1728 Twenty-first Street NW., Washington, D. C.; Chief, Information Division; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $5,600.

Gamer, S. R., 4013 Forty-seventh Street NW., Washington, D. C.; 4615 Chestnut Street, Bethesda, Md.; attorney; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $5,500.

Gerber, Albert B., 2411 Fourteenth Street NW, Washington, D. C.; Chief, Opinion Unit; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $3,800.

Goldblatt, Dora, 3500 Fourteenth Street NW., Washington, D. C.; stenographer; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; $1,800.

Gorrin, Louis, 1712 Sixteenth Street NW., Washington, D. C.; principal attorney; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $5,Є00.

Harris, Kathryn, 1735 S Street NW., Washington, D. C.; specialist; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; $2,600.

Hertz, Edith Weil, 1923 S Street NW., 4605 Hunt Avenue, Chevy Chase, Washington, D. C.; lawyer; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $2,400.

Herzog, Florence, 2225 N Street NW., Washington, D. C.; senior statistical clerk; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; member, Washington Book Shop; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $2,000. Johnston, Mercer G., 2015 Klingle Road, Washington, D. C.; assistant to division director; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; member, Washington Committee to Aid China; $4,200.

Kaminstein, Abraham L., 1841 R Street NW., Washington, D. C.; associate attorney; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $3,200.

Kirschenbaum, Francis, 3517 Fourteenth Street NW., Washington, D. C.; legal secretary; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $1,680. Kneisly, Floyd D., 1005 North Edgewood, Arlington, Va.; section chief; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; $3,200.

Kurasch, Martin, 4471 Conduit Road NW., Washington, D. C.; attorney; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $3,800.

Lamberton, Harry C., 1235 Thirty-first Street NW., Washington, D. C.; assistant general counsel; member, Washington Book Shop; member, Washington Committee for Democratic Action; member, executive committee, National Federation for Constitutional Liberties: delegate, Conference on Pan American Democracy; member, Provisional Committee for a Washington Committee for Democratic Rights; member, National Committee, American League for Peace and Democracy; sponsor, Conference on Constitutional Liberties in America; chairman, Washington branch, American League for Peace and Democracy: holder of Soviet bonds; $6,500.

Lett, Robin W., 1712 Seventh Street NW., Washington, D. C., attorney; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $2,000.

Moore, Allen, 3817 Cathedral Avenue NW., Washington, D. C.; lawyer; member, American League for Peace and Democracy; $6,000.