Dr. BENNETT. May I just proceed a little further with this statement about helping other people? I will be through with it in a

moment.

I want to point out something here relating to the foreign situation that I feel pretty strongly about. It has been said recently that we should share our technological knowledge with other countries. who are not as well off as we are. I believe in that. That is exactly what we have been doing for several years.

As a matter of fact, I think that may be one of the most important types of help we can give them. They come here at their own expense, for the most part. There have been some trainees from Latin American countries whose expenses were paid under another authorization, not ours. They have taken hold with their hands and have helped us with our work quite a little.

They go back home and as a result of what they learned here working with us-I know about this because we keep in touch with them49 foreign countries have started soil-conservation programs more or less patterned after the work that is being done in the United States. That means they are at least thinking about trying to help themselves.

EFFECT OF SCS PROGRAM ON WORLD FOOD SITUATION

The United States could not feed the world indefinitely. There is a matter of mathematics that comes into the equation and you cannot get it out. If the present rate of world population runs on, which is an increase of 1 percent a year, according to population specialists, it seems to me that by the end of this century-and that is not far offwe will have in the world around four billion people. We now have an estimated two and a quarter billion people. Almost every year many die from famine and many are hungry all the time.

But here is a method of helping them to help them to help themselves without much expense.

Mr. WHITTEN. Doctor, I think you will find many people on the Hill here, and throughout the country who feel that that is where our help should be at this time. Of course, immediately, after the war there was the problem of feeding starving people, but right at this stage of the matter many people feel that our assistance should be limited to provide information and giving them the benefits of our skills, and so forth.

Dr. BENNETT. I did not want to be misunderstood, Mr. Chairman. By what I said I did not mean that I was opposed to the things that are being done. I think we are the kind of people who will help others if we see they are suffering. Americans usually try to help.

Mr. WHITTEN. I did not mean to give you credit for having said anything like that, but it was a recognition that this is the best way of helping foreign countries; for us to provide these skills and making them available so that these people can help themselves.

Any other approach is, at best, temporary. Some people think that the effect might be similar to that of the WPA, that if you teach a fellow to depend on that help for too long a period, that it is to be handed out to him, that it does not help the fellow across the water and might not help the folks here.

ADDITION OF NEW SOIL CONSERVATION SERVICE DISTRICTS

Mr. ANDERSEN. Doctor, how many new districts have been added in the past fiscal year?

Dr. BENNETT. We expect by the end of this fiscal year that there will be added 167 districts.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I note, however, that you ask for no increase in the budget. How do you expect to take care of those new districts? Dr. BENNETT. We can only do the very best we can with the appropriations we have.

FUNDS REQUESTED FOR 1950

Mr. ANDERSEN. Perhaps you did ask for more money. did you ask of the Department?

Dr. BENNETT. I do not have those figures.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I would like to have them.

How much

Mr. GRANT. The Soil Conservation Service asked the Department for a total increase of $17,106,900.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Is that above what was given them by the budget? Mr. GRANT. That is an increase above what was appropriated for the current year.

Mr. ANDERSEN. What I want is how much they requested for the fiscal year 1950 of the budget?

First of all, I would like to know what they requested from the Department.

Mr. GRANT. An increase of $17,106,900.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Was that above last year's appropriation?

Mr. GRANT. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANDERSEN. In other words, the budget, then, disallowed that $17,106,900; is that correct?

Mr. GRANT. The Department then submitted to the Bureau of the Budget a total increase of $8,291,500, of which $7,502,000 was a supplementary estimate and not in the budget ceiling. The total increase was disapproved.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Consequently, all that is in the budget before us is the same amount that we gave last year, and that is the amount I am particularly interested in, because it was as a result of my amendment for an additional $6,000,000 that you people got as much as you did last year.

But I cannot see how you expect to go ahead and do a good job with these additional districts and push this work-which seems to be the entire theme here today-unless you get the necessary money for the technical help.

What is your answer to that, Doctor?

Dr. BENNETT. Well, it takes technical help to get the job done, and to speed it up.

Mr. ANDERSEN. It also takes technical help to get the districts into operation, does it not?

Dr. BENNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I think that Congress should decide one way or the other whether it is worth while, or not.

Mr. STIGLER. Doctor, referring to the $17,000,000, that you asked the Department for, how was that broken down?

Dr. BENNETT. I will have to ask my assistants here about that. Mr. GRANT. Of the total increase of $17,106,900, $732,000 was for research, and $16,374,900 was for soil-conservation operations. Mr. STIGLER. Did that include the expense of technicians? Mr. GRANT. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Without additional funds, Mr. Stigler, there is no way that I can see that these various districts that have been organized can come in and begin to get the benefit of your great organization's work.

FOLLOW-UP WORK IN SOIL CONSERVATION SERVICE DISTRICTS

Mr. STIGLER. As I see it, there is no opportunity given these soilconservation districts to go back and check up on the work that is already done, to see whether or not the practices recommended were followed by the farmer who is participating in the practice.

Mr. DYKES. Mr. Andersen, if I may answer, personally I believe, there is no question but that if we have to take technicians out of the old districts to staff the new districts, that we are going to hurt our total production. Even with the same total staff we will get less done because in starting new districts there is a period of time when our technicians are getting acquainted with the problems and getting acquainted with the people of the new area.

Naturally, they will produce less under those conditions than if they were left in the old districts where they were working. If we reduce the assistance in the old districts our total production, therefore, is going to go down somewhat. I do not think there is much question about that.

Mr. ANDERSEN. You can spread the work, Mr. Dykes, so thinly that it cannot result in a proper job; is that what you mean? Mr. DYKES. That is correct.

Mr. STIGLER. I am very proud of my own district and particularly my own county in regard to soil conservation all are organized. In the last 5 years they have been holding different celebrations to emphasize the importance of soil conservation and demonstrate some particular phase of it. I well remember year before last when they had between three and four thousand people in my home county for various demonstrations.

In the past 5 years great progress has been made and I want to see more made.

That is one reason why I was very much interested in the breakdown of the money asked for, but which was not received, not only from the Department, but also from the budget, as well.

COST OF OPERATING SOIL CONSERVATION DISTRICTS

Mr. HORAN. Mr. Chairman, following up on that break-down, I believe Mr. Dykes would have this information:

How many districts do you have as of today, Mr. Dykes?

Mr. DYKES. I believe that is 2,094.

Dr. BENNETT. Including the grazing districts. I was not including them when I gave the figure.

Mr. HORAN. How many do you expect to have at the end of this fiscal year, 1949?

86435-49-pt. 2- 6

Mr. DYKES. Twenty-two hundred.

Mr. HORAN. How many do you anticipate in the fiscal year 1950? Mr. DYKES. Another 175.

Of course, some of those will come pretty late in the year. We figure that an additional 175 districts will request assistance in 1950. Mr. HORAN. Taking it in round numbers-and they do not all have to come in at the beginning of the fiscal year-supposing you have 2,325 districts, can you give us the figures that way?

Mr. DYKES. In other words, you want district years; is that right? Mr. HORAN. You have about $20,000 on an average to operate those districts?

Mr. DYKES. That is right.

Mr. HORAN. What would that add up to, at $20,000 a year?

I just want to get something in the record on that.

Mr. DYKES. That would be $46,500,000.

You see, $20,000-I do not think it is exactly that figure-has been changed by the Pay Act increases.

The average in this fiscal year with Pay Act costs is $21,309. With service to the additional districts that come in there will be a reduction to 19,000 plus next year if there is no change in the budget.

Mr. HORAN. To service the anticipated number of districts that you will have, how much of an increase would you actually have to have there in order to take care of these districts?

Mr. DYKES. A total of about $49,500,000 to provide assistance at the 1949 fiscal year level for 2,325 districts on a year-long basis. Mr. HORAN. Then the budget figure here is low, is it not?

Mr. DYKES. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITTEN. We are glad to have that exact figure.

Of course, as Mr. Horan has indicated, we are all very much interested in this service.

You know, as we have considered this bill we have found many and many places where we provide more money, but we have yet to find a place where we can cut instead of providing more.

That is the problem we have.

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 1949.

Mr. WHITTEN. The committee will come to order, gentlemen.

Appropriation act, 1949...

Anticipated Pay Act, supplemental, 1949__

Transfer in 1950 estimates from "Printing and Binding, Department

of Agriculture".

Base for 1950.

Budget estimate, 1950.

Decrease (due to partial absorption of Pay Act costs) -

Project statement-amounts shown include Pay Act costs

$1, 548, 000 108, 000

1,000

1,657, 000 1, 651, 000

-6, 000