timber use, we were using up our saw-timber at almost twice the rate that it was growing.

Senator, that figure needs some explanation. In using the 1944 figures as a basis and making our estimate we use the term "almost." Now as a matter of fact we feel it would be more nearly accurate to say 11⁄2 times as of that time, but we were also thinking in terms of 1948. The total would probably be more nearly double in 1948 than it would be 11⁄2 times, so we roughly gave those over-all figures in saying we were using it up at almost twice the rate. I doubt if that figure is very much off.

According to the figures we obtained from the Forest Service, that estimate is not very far off. If we had the latest figures, which we do not have at the moment for 1948, I think you will find it is very close to that. Even 11⁄2 times though is extremely serious.

Senator CORDON. I would like to discuss that with you, but perhaps you had better finish.

Mr. CHAPMAN. No, that is all right.

Senator CORDON. Let me suggest to you, Mr. Chapman, that in the fir region of the West, just as rapidly as trees are cut, the sunlight can get to the ground, nature reseeds those areas.

Mr. CHAPMAN. That is if the trees are cut properly, Senator.

Senator CORDON. Just as long as there are sufficient seed trees left. State law requires that they be left in those areas now, with the result that those areas reseed themselves in the fir area, and anyone who is familiar with the area knows that that is true.

Rarely there have been cases where there were no seeds left and planting is necessary, not to replant the whole area but to replant a few spots so that those trees can furnish the seeds that nature will use in replanting.

In the South today most of the areas that were cut over are reseeded in the same general way, and I can't understand a statement that we are cutting at twice the rate that timber is regrowing.

Mr. CHAPMAN. Senator, I would like to have Mr. Shanklin come up here. He is the forester in the Department who developed these figures based on the 1946 report of the Forest Service.

I want to say that from the destructive elements that are taking place in the forests of the country, both public and private, and from the destructive methods of cutting that are being used in a large number of cases, our timber, in my opinion, is being used up at almost twice the rate it is being grown.

Now it may not be exactly twice the rate, but it is almost. If we had the figures for 1948 I think we could demonstrate that it is.

Mr. Shanklin is the forester who developed these figures. I should like to have him explain the figures in greater detail.

Senator CORDON. Since yesterday I have gotten in touch with authorities who presented their views on it, particularly with reference to the total annual cut, and the annual growth throughout the United States, but I am going to be very much interested in what you have to say about it.

Senator BUTLER. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if it wouldn't be a good plan to have the statements that Senator Cordon has requested from authorities, when he gets them, inserted in the record at about this place.

Mr. CHAPMAN. We would be very glad to have them inserted. Mr. Shanklin, would you care to make a statement in response to that?

Mr. SHANKLIN. Yes, Mr. Chapman.

Senator, the Forest Service reappraisal data shows that for all timber, all sizes, the country is approximately in balance between cut and growth.

Senator CORDON. That answers all my questions.

Mr. SHANKLIN. The statement was with respect to saw-timber size alone.

Mr. CHAPMAN. That is right. That is what we are talking about, not the total over-all growth, but that of the saw-timber size.

Senator CORDON. You can readily understand that inasmuch as the Lord didn't so arrange the growth of timber in the United States so as to have cycles differing one year to the next until we use up the total of the growth, but that when the people came here they found completely grown forests, it is going to be absolutely necessary to cut that timber more rapidly than the timber one year less old is going to grow, or you will never even get reproduction the way we need it. Mr. SHANKLIN. That is right. We have to have what we call a regulated forest area. The statistics on a Nation-wide basis are a little bit misleading, I think, because, in my opinion as a forester, we should think in terms of local watersheds as to whether or not our growth and our drain are approximately in balance by local operating units, and not necessarily the country as a whole.

I believe that if we examine each region of the Nation we will find quite a different picture. It is true in the Pacific Northwest that they are cutting the heavier growth timber faster than they are growing saw timber at the present time.

Senator CORDON. You mean faster than timber that will be saw timber within a year or so becomes saw timber.

Mr. SHANKLIN. That is right.

Senator CORDON. There is no question about that.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, then, do I understand that we are in agreement upon this statement: That the forests of the country are not producing saw timber at anything like the rate that the country wants to consume saw timber?

Mr. SHANKLIN. At this particular time.

Mr. CHAPMAN. That is our understanding of the situation at this particular time.

The CHAIRMAN. And you make the ratio at lease 11⁄2 to 1.
Mr. CHAPMAN. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that correct?

Mr. CHAPMAN. At least 11⁄2 to 1, at this time.

Senator CORDON. You will agree that there is nothing that the Department of the Interior could do or anybody else could do to make saw timber grow faster than it will grow.

Mr. SHANKLIN. There are, Senator, a few things that could be done. It is known that we do have barren areas that should be growing timber. We do know that some of our forests lands are not completely restocked. We need some artificial reforestation in certain acreages to bring our lands into productivity.

Senator CORDON. I agree to that.

Mr. SHANKLIN. But after we have the trees in the ground and they are growing, it is up to Mother Nature.

Senator CORDON. But at the present time, according to your statement, the cut and the growth of trees is substantially in balance. Mr. SHANKLIN. That is right.

Senator CORDON. The only thing is that the trees that are grown. aren't old enough to come into production as full saw timber as rapidly as you are cutting the old trees.

Mr. SHANKLIN. That is correct, sir.

Senator CORDON. Is it also true that until you cut the old growth, young trees in those areas can't grow at all?

Mr. SHANKLIN. That is also true, but only in one section, largely, in the United States, do we have that situation prevailing today, Senator, and that is in your own territory.

We have gone through New England, the Lake States, the South, and the old-growth timber has been removed. There is very little remaining there.

Senator CORDON. Of course in the area that the Interior Department administers, Alaska, that statement is true.

Mr. SHANKLIN. That is true.

Senator CORDON. You have got to cut it off before you can grow

new trees.

Mr. CHAPMAN. In Alaska that is correct. Also in Alaska, Senator, we are losing more by fire because of the lack of fire protection. Senator CORDON. Are you losing much by disease?

Mr. CHAPMAN. An awful lot by disease.

Senator CORDON. You have either got to cut that timber and get. the value of it, or let it stand and lose it anyway.

Mr. CHAPMAN. We should have more protection for our timberlands. The Department is administering some 202,000,000 acres of forest-land areas. Out of that not more than 19,000,000 is adequately protected from forest fires and pests.

Senator CORDON. You certainly need fire protection.

Mr. CHAPMAN. That is one of the serious problems we are faced with, Senator. As you realize, it is expensive

Senator CORDON. And you need the regulated cutting to the extent that you will keep the cut in balance in the various areas.

Mr. SHANKLIN. We do, sir.

• Senator WATKINS. Isn't it true that much of the timber in Alaska. is overripe?

Mr. CHAPMAN. Well, I suppose you could consider it overripe if it could be marketed economically.

Senator WATKINS. Much of it is deteriorating at the present time. Mr. CHAPMAN. I suppose it would deteriorate after a certain length of time. We would be very glad and the Forest Service would, too, to get some contracts for some people to cut it.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the present forest area in the United States?

Mr. SHANKLIN. Four hundred and sixty million acres, roughly, of commercial forest area.

The CHAIRMAN. Now that is the area upon which trees are growing which are capable of being used in trade encompass?

Mr. SHANKLIN. That is right. It excludes all reserve forest areas. like parks.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the total forest area, commercial and reserve?

Mr. SHANKLIN. Around 600,000,000 acres.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the forest area in the United States

100 years ago?

Mr. SHANKLIN. I think that that was close to 1,100,000,000, but I would have to check that figure.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, will you check it?

Mr. SHANKLIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any figures upon the areas which once were forest lands which are not now producing timber?

Mr. SHANKLIN. That can be obtained for the record, sir.

Senator CORDON. Would you show in that how much of those lands are now producing agriculture so that we can get the whole picture? Mr. SHANKLIN. Yes.

(The statement requested is as follows:)

Estimated original forest area..

TABLE III.-Continental United States exclusive of Alaska

Acres

870, 000, 000

Estimated area of original forest land cleared for agriculture_

Senator CORDON. Most of the upper Mississippi

timbered until the white folks came.

225, 000, 000

Valley was

The CHAIRMAN. Of course many a homestead was built in the forest. There is no doubt about that.

Mr. CHAPMAN. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. I want also to know if you have any information with respect to the areas which have not been settled, which have not been turned into cities or into farms or into manufacturing, but are still capable of growing trees which are not growing trees, I mean areas which once did, if there are any such areas.

Senator CORDON. There are.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give us the acreage on that?

Mr. SHANKLIN. We will try, sir. I am a little bit doubtful whether that particular figure can be obtained readily, but I will try, sir. (The statement requested is as follows:)

It is estimated that 163,000,000 acres of forest land are now denuded or only poorly stocked with seedlings.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, then, are there any areas under the jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior which are regarded as forest lands but which have not and do not now grow trees?

Mr. SHANKLIN. Well, that would only be such areas that may have been covered by fire that are not restocking naturally.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any information upon the area of forest land which has been made nonproductive and remains nonproductive by reason of fire or other disaster?

Mr. SHANKLIN. We have just recently been trying to obtain statistics for the Forest Service for reforestation purposes, and I believe that shows around 260,000 acres of Interior lands which are not restocking naturally and should be replanted.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, now, what is the area in the United States that is available for replanting which has not been replanted?

Senator CORDON. May I inquire, Senator, if you mean under the administration of the Interior?

The CHAIRMAN. No; I mean the whole thing.

Mr. SHANKLIN. That would have to be obtained from the Forest Service, sir, but I will try to obtain it for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps this committee may desire to invite the Forest Service to testify on this general subject. I think it is of very great importance.

I know, for example, that in my own State there are larger areas which were included in the original forest withdrawals which at that time had never grown a tree, and which are still not growing trees but which are used for grazing and not for growing timber.

I think the plan at the time that the forest reserves were originally created was to include large areas which could be planted to make a larger original source of timber. Do you know whether that is the fact or not?

Mr. SHANKLIN. I can't answer that, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. If you get the answers to those questions, we will put them in the record.

Mr. CHAPMAN. We can get those figures for the record, Senator. (The figures requested are as follows:)

Estimated at 75,000,000 acres.

Senator CORDON. Mr. Chapman, is it true that the sometimescondemned Eightieth Congress provided legislation for the Interior Department permitting the application of sustained-yield forestry to the unappropriated public-domain lands under the Department?

Mr. CHAPMAN. That is true, we have authority for that and it is a very good law to have. The Forest Service has had such authority for a considerable time.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you happen to introduce that bill?

Mr. CHAPMAN. Mr. Shanklin says that it needs to be more adequately augmented with appropriations which we haven't received. Senator CORDON. You also got appropriations.

Mr. CHAPMAN. We did but they are not sufficient for a real program. Senator CORDON. Well, it got as much money as it could spend. That problem will be with us in the Eighty-first Congress.

Mr. CHAPMAN. We will be back for an increased appropriation for this activity.

Senator BUTLER. The Eightieth Congress also passed a law that would unlock the door of opportunity to develop Alaska with reference to its Forest Service.

Mr. CHAPMAN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know why those gentlemen are so touchy. about the Eightieth Congress.

Senator CORDON. We are rather proud of it.

Senator ECTON. Mr. Chairman, I wondered if Mr. Chapman could tell us how much the Interior Department has been spending on this reforestation.

Mr. SHANKLIN. Nothing.

Senator ECTON. You haven't spent anything so far?

Mr. SHANKLIN. Well, I am referring to the 1949 fiscal year. If you are carrying it back a good many years, that wouldn't be so, but no moneys are presently available for strictly reforestation purposes in the current appropriation.