This chart points up sharply our shortage of school facilities. O the 92,000 children of school age, approximately 32,000 are in the public schools. Some 27,000 are in the Federal schools, 7,800 in mission schools, and about 6,000 children, of whom we have no school record their parents may have moved away. But the most startling feature of that chart is the fact that there are approximately 20,000 children for whom no school facilities are available.

Most of those children are in the Southwest, Mr. Murdock. Most of them are Navajo. But there are also a large number on the Papagos Reservation. And there are scattered reservations in other parts of the country where facilities are not locally available.

It seems to me that that clearly points to one of the major problems which we and the Congress must face. Almost one-fourth of the number of Indian children of school age are deprived of education because there are no facilities for them.

Senator WATKINS. Do you have a break-down by reservations on that, Mr. Zimmerman?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I think so. Yes.

Mr. MURDOCK. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, concerning this section in white, "No school facilities available, 19,375." About what part of that is made up of school children on the Navajo Reservation? Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I should think at least 75 percent.

Senator WATKINS. May I ask, Mr. Zimmerman: Do we have treaties with tribes requiring us to furnish schools to all of the Indian tribes in the United States?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. No, sir. Not with all of the tribes. Most of the tribes do have treaties. The treaties are often vague. They sometimes refer simply to employment of a teacher, sometimes they are more specific, as in the case of the Navajo, the treaty of 1868 with the Navajo which provides that there shall be 1 teacher for each 30 children.

Senator WATKINS. That is the most specific feature you have in any of the treaties?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator WATKINS. And we have less Federal participation in that program than we have in any other.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. That is true. Without going too deeply into that, although it is one of the most pressing problems, as you know, that we face, part of the lag has been, first, that the Navajos for a long time did not want to go to school. As recently as 1925 or thereabouts, superintendents were literally taking Navajo children by force, literally kidnaping them away to school. That situation has completely changed.

The Navajos are fully aware of the need for education, and they are clamoring for more schools.

Senator WATKINS. Do you not think, Mr. Zimmerman, that if we had used proper methods at the time they were "kidnaping" these Navajo children to take them to school, that we could have convinced them as we are now convincing them or as they are convinced, that they should go to school?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I doubt it very much, because the change is due to many factors certainly beyond the Bureau's control. There are thousands of Navajo boys who have been in the armed services, they

have come back with a completely different viewpoint from what they had when they went in.

That is true not only of the Navajo: it is true of other people. I was in Oklahoma recently talking with one of the older tribal leaders. We were riding across the prairie and he said, "When I was a boy I did not work. I had a horse and I rode all over this country. There was not a road here, there was not a fence. If I was tired I laid down in my blanket and slept on the ground. That is different today. The boys that we have around here have an entirely different point of view. They want to work. They want a piece of land, they want to go into farming or they want to go into business. I recognize the difference.'

I think there are other factors there which have intervened. Senator WATKINS. As I recall the quotation from the treaty we agreed to give them a school for each 30 pupils.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. That is right.

Senator WATKINS. Did we ever try that by offering them a school teacher, or did we arbitrarily fix up some other kind of scheme that did not get them to respond?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I cannot say as to that. But even at the present time we are not able to offer them the facilities in accordance with that provision of the treaty. There are only about 6,000 Navajo children in school today.

Senator WATKINS. Something like 16,000 out of schools as I understand it.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. That is right.

Mr. MURDOCK. May I add that at the last appearance of Chief Chee Dodge-who was long the leader of the Navajo people—before a congressional committee, he did stress their need for schools and placed that as the first order. I wanted to add that for the record.

Senator WATKINS. A year ago—not quite a year ago, we had a hearing on a 10-year program for the Navajos. I think most of the tribal council were here and many of them testified, and they also placed education as probably the first requirement, the first thing they thought ought to be done for them.

Senator MCFARLAND. Would you say that the main reason for the change in the attitude of the Indians is in coming more in contact with the white people, and intermingling with them?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I think that is undoubtedly the most important factor, certainly.

Senator MCFARLAND. That was particularly true with the boys in the service.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. That is correct.

Senator MCFARLAND. And then with the coming of automobiles when they finally got to where they used it and got into town and got in among the white people, do you not think that had quite a bit to do with it?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I am sure it did. I am not sure it has always been a desirable contact, the automobile and the roadhouses and the other "advantages," so-called. But nevertheless it is true.

Senator MCFARLAND. There is always bad coming with the good. You cannot separate them and direct them to go where you want as long as they are free individuals and have rights.

Do you not think it would greatly improve now if we had better roads there where white people could get in there and thus improve the school and also give them a better understanding of the people they were going to have to deal with when they got outside?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. If it is germane I would like to answer your question in this way: That I have pointed out repeatedly in the last few years that we need money for roads on the Navajo as well as elsewhere.

Senator MCFARLAND. Yes; I know we have.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. We have closed schools on the Navajo because we did not have enough money to maintain the roads, or did not have enough money to buy busses to take the children to school.

Senator MCFARLAND. Let me ask you this question, for the record: Does your problem also become more difficult by reason of not having schools and the teachers do not like to go out there and isolate themselves where they cannot get out for a long period of time, and get to town?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I would answer that by saying: If we could pay comparable salaries, salaries comparable to those paid in the States and also in the Territory of Alaska, my judgment is that we would have no difficulty in getting teachers.

Senator MCFARLAND. Even though they could not get into town? Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Even though they could not get to town quite as easily, perhaps, as they would like. But our primary difficulty with teachers as with doctors is that our salary scale is too low. There is no inducement to a teacher to go to work on the Navajo if she can get a job in Phoenix or Prescott and earn three to six hundred dollars more a year.

Senator MCFARLAND. The Navajo himself, when he becomes educated, what has been your experience with him as a teacher?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Navajos make excellent teachers. But the Navajos themselves do not want either Navajos or any other Indians as teachers unless they have the same qualifications as a white teacher. Senator MCFARLAND. Surely they do not want that.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. There was a time when there were certain Indian assistants who were not fully trained teachers, and those assistants generally had trouble. The Navajos did not respect even their own people. They wanted people who were fully trained as teachers. They did not want any substandard education thrust off on them.

Senator WATKINS. Is it true that the tribal council when they were here a year ago insisted that they would like to have their children trained in white schools? At least some members of the tribe.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Some members did. I doubt if that is the prevailing Navajo sentiment.

Senator WATKINS. I remember one particularly well-educated member of that tribe who insisted he wanted his children trained in white shcools.

Senator MILLER. What is the population of the Navajo tribe at the present time?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. About 64,000.

Senator WATKINS. Are you including the Hopis with the Navajos when you make that statement?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. No. And that is not an accurate figure, Senator Watkins.