timber to take out the old trees so young timber can grow; that that is also true in the forests under Federal dominion in Alaska. Secretary KRUG. It is certainly true in Alaska. Senator CORDON. And even equally true in the forests of the West. Secretary KRUG. I wouldn't be able to say that. Senator CORDON. There has never been enough cutting of any of the nationally held timber to get the old trees out and give the young trees an opportunity to grow. I hope that someone in the Department will expand on that a bit because the statement standing there might be subject to misinterpretation. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Ecton, have you any questions to ask? Senator ECTON. Well, right along that same line, Mr. Secretary, you mentioned that there were acreages belonging to the Federal Government and acreages belonging to private individuals or companies. In order to conserve these forests and get a sustained yield, certain things were necessary. I would like to ask you, Is any additional legislation necessary to effect these consolidations that you know of? Secretary KRUG. Well, I don't think any legislation is needed to accomplish the result I am talking about on the public domain other than the appropriation of funds to do the proper job of administration so that Senator Cordon's purpose can be achieved so that you can get access roads in there, so that you can work out agreements with the private timber holders, who will also cut from the public domain on a sustained-yield basis covering a practical area of operation, and I know our own timber, without exception, I believe, requires the construction of access roads before you can ever make any arrangements which are very satisfactory in attaining sustained yield. I don't know personally of any legislation that is needed in that particular field. Do you, Mr. Mr. Chapman? Mr. CHAPMAN. No. You have authority for the sustained yields throughout the programs now in all public lands. The CHAIRMAN. I notice that Representative Bosone, of Utah and Representative Aspinall, of Colorado, have remained. Do either of you desire to ask any questions at this point? Mrs. BOSONE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am glad to have this opportunity to be here because in remaining I want to learn all that I can. I certainly realize that we are all here for one thing, and that is peace, and if we get peace we have got to have our Department of Interior operating as Secretary Krug has explained. Otherwise we are not going to be in a position to sustain the civilization we are going to save from war, so that is my interest in being here. I was particularly interested in what the Secretary had to say about oil shales because we have a new oil development in the eastern part of Utah and in the rich coal fields of the State of Utah. I believe we are reputed to have, Secretary Krug, about the richest coal fields in the world. The CHAIRMAN. Oh, well, let me invite you to Wyoming. Mrs. BOSONE. I know you have extensive ones, but with all our by products going up in smoke I was very much interested in the hope that the Secretary expressed. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Congressman? Mr. ASPINALL. Mr. Chairman, I am very appreciative of being here. I wish to remain silent until I learn something. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions by members of the Senate committee? Senator McFarland? Senator MCFARLAND. I perfer, Mr. Chairman, to wait until the other members of the staff have an opportunity to present their respective views and then they will probably answer a great many of my questions. The CHAIRMAN. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) The CHAIRMAN. In view of the fact that there probably will not be a session of the Senate tomorrow, the Chair will ask the members of the committee if it will be agreeable to have the meeting tomorrow, beginning at 11 o'clock instead of at 10 o'clock, and with that in mind, since the presence of Members of the Senate will probably be required on the floor this afternoon, and we will have no means of knowing how long the session will go, and in view of the fact that the House members are absent, we shall take a recess at this time. I wish to thank the Secretary of the Interior for his presentation and his readiness to respond to questions. We will recess until 11 o'clock tomorrow morning. We will reconvene in this room and we shall proceed with Under Secretary Chapman, unless members of the committee desire to ask the Secretary any questions at that time. I think it would be well for you to be here tomorrow. Secretary KRUG. All right, I will be here, sir. (Whereupon, at 12:10 p. m., the committee adjourned, to reconvene at 11 a. m. Tuesday, February 1, 1949.) NATURAL RESOURCES POLICY TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 1, 1949 UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS, Washington, D. C. The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 11:10 a. m., in the caucus room, Senate Office Building, Hon. Joseph C. O'Mahoney (chairman) presiding. Present: Senators O'Mahoney (chairman), McFarland, Anderson, Kerr, Butler, Cordon, Ecton, and Watkins. Also present: Representatives Bosone, Aspinall, D'Ewart, Peterson, and White; Delegates Bartlett, Farrington, and Fernos-Isern; Governor William H. Hastie of the Virgin Islands; Roy F. Bessey, Chairman, Pacific-Northwest Field Committee of the Department of the Interior; John R. Mahoney, Library of Congress; and Mills Astin, Chief Clerk. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will be in session. The Chair takes pleasure in announcing this morning the presence of Mr. W. O. Dobbins, who is director of the State Planning Board of the State of Alabama. Mr. Dobbins tells me that he comes here by direction of Governor Folsom, who is very much interested in the work that this committee has initiated to make this broad survey of our natural resources. Mr. Dobbins tells us that he has brought with him a large quantity of material which he is placing at the disposal of the committee. Perhaps, before the sessions are ended, we shall have the advantage of having testimony from the representatives of similar boards and agencies in the various States. The witness this morning is the Under Secretary of the Interior, Oscar Chapman, who, I understand, desires to make a preliminary summary of his prepared statement which has been already filed with the committee. Mr. Secretary, you may proceed. Senator CORDON. Mr. Chairman, do I understand that Secretary Krug will not return for the hearing? The CHAIRMAN. Yes; he will return whenever the members of the committee desire. Senator CORDON. I hoped he would return this morning. Senator BUTLER. I had a bunch of questions for the Secretary. The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we proceed, then, with the testimony of Mr. Chapman and ask the Secretary to be prepared to come after this presentation. Mr. CHAPMAN. Fine. The CHAIRMAN. The Secretary sent word to me that he will be available for questioning. In view of the fact that the Senate is not in session today, I fancy we can put in a pretty good day's work. Mr. CHAPMAN. Good. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chapman, will you have somebody of your staff notify the Secretary? Mr. CHAPMAN. Yes. Mr. Doty, will you call the Secretary's office? The CHAIRMAN. Before you call, may I ask the members of the committee what their disposition is? Shall we ask the Secretary to be here at this morning's session, or after lunch? Senator BUTLER. At his convenience, I would say. The CHAIRMAN. Then we will expect him sometime during the afternoon. Senator BUTLER. I may be able to get all my questions answered by Mr. Chapman. The CHAIRMAN. He has a good smile. Maybe he can answer them, too. Very good, Mr. Secretary. STATEMENT OF OSCAR L. CHAPMAN, UNDER SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR (ACCOMPANIED BY JOHN F. SHANKLIN, DIRECTOR OF FORESTS, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR) Mr. CHAPMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I feel that the Secretary so ably presented the objectives and programs of the Department yesterday that I hesitate to cover the same ground, but at the risk of some repetition I would like to summarize briefly my general statement that was submitted in the printed report you have before you. Before beginning my general summary I would like to read a brief summary of the energy section of my report, which I feel is very important, and call to your attention the energy chart on the board. Yesterday a number of questions were asked on our energy programs which my summary may clear up. The reason I am doing this is I feel that everything that we are talking about here, such a large part of what we are talking about in terms of progress and development of natural resources, is so dependent upon cheap power that I wanted to put into the record a summary of the first part of my opening statement to give, at least, an over-all picture of the energy situation as we see it. In 1947, the United States produced 35 quadrillion B. t. u. of energy from mineral fuels and water power, about 250 million B. t. u. per capita. Senator CORDON. May I interrupt you to ask you if you are reading from this summary that I have before me, or something additional? Mr. CHAPMAN. No, Senator. This particular part is what I wanted to give a special summary on, and I did not have it mimeographed. The rest of it you do have. Senator CORDON. All right. Mr. CHAPMAN. The chart entitled "Energy" shows the forms in which the energy was used. If during the next decade national putput were to increase by a third, then energy requirements would increase about proportionately. One of our responsibilities is forecasting the forms and prices at which the energy could be available. The proportions represented |