method for developing oil reserves on public lands including submerged land along the coasts. Needless to say there should be other minerals in the tidelands and continental shelf in addition to petroleum.

With respect to the conservation and development of the resources here at home, we should recognize that they are related to conservation and development elsewhere in the world and make every effort to stimulate world trade and production. Our own western development programs have proved, as in a laboratory, the fact that as stable economies are achieved by a balance of industry and agriculture, the levels of living rise and the underdeveloped areas become not only a source of necessary raw materials but also a market for the things that other areas in our country produce.

That is why I believe that the President's proposal to share our technical knowledge with other peace-loving countries and to press for development of other areas of the world is not only a far-sighted foreign policy but also sound resource conservation and utilization policy.

These necessary programs will be discussed with you at greater length by my associates in the Department who will follow me. Perhaps it would be helpful if I took a moment to point out the organization of the Department which is doing this job, and something about its basic set-up.

The chart which is over here at the committee's right shows a simplified organization diagram of the Department of the Interior. We have, in the Department, as the committee knows, an Under Secretary and two Assistant Secretaries. Mr. Chapman is Under Secretary, Mr. Davidson is Assistant Secretary, Mr. William Warne is Assistant Secretary. Mr. Mastin G. White is our Solicitor.

The circles shown on the top line are the administrative and staff divisions of the Department. Those to the right of the center line are program staff divisions, and they have the principal job of laying out Department programs and integrating those which overlap more than one bureau.

The first one there designated is Power, which administers policy studies and reviews to our three principal power agencies.

The next one is the Territories and Island possessions, administering the territories and islands.

The third is the Office of Land Utilization, which develops policy concerning conservation and land utilization for our operating bureaus. The fourth is the Oil and Gas Division, which coordinates all governmental policy relating to oil and gas.

The fifth is Geography, which has the unique function of deciding what specific names should be applied to cities, bays, seas, and so on. I did not realize when I got into the Department of the Interior that that was an important job, but now I do because you have to know first what you are talking about in order to get the various departments of Government all working in the same place at the same time.

The last one, the sixth one over, is the Program Division, which we have developed during the past 2 years to get program integration among our various bureaus.

On the left side of that center line are four administrative divisions which are typical of the regular government department, and I think require no further explanation from me. They are as small as we are able to make them. Their operating functions have all been decentralized to the operating bureaus.

Senator BUTLER. Mr. Chairman, I know you suggested that we not interrupt the Secretary until he had finished his statement, but I think it would be helpful if he could explain in a little more detail right at this point what he accomplishes by this Program Staff Division that normally would not be accomplished under the Administrative Staff Division. In other words, it looks to me a little bit like an interposed division that duplicates authority of the Administrative Staff Division.

Could you make that a little clearer?

Secretary KRUG. Yes, I could, Senator Butler, and I am very happy that you brought it up. To make it crystal clear, following me, Mr. Chapman, Mr. Warne, and Mr. Davidson will take up four or five of our important problems and show you the need for program coordination which comes through the Program Division. The staff, the administrative agencies, have absolutely no responsibility for coordinating program, as you will see from the designations they have.

They provide budget administration, they provide information services, they provide the administrative policy concerning purchasing and householding and filing, and things of that nature, and they also set the policy for hiring and firing employees. But they do not have any authority and they should not have any authority, in terms of laying out what the Department should do, and in reconciling conflicts which frequently come between the interests of our own operating bureaus and as between our operating bureaus and other agencies of the Government.

To give you just one example: We are now working on a coordinated plan for developing the Columbia River. At the direction of the President the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Reclamation and the other agencies in the Department of the Interior are trying to decide what series of works will do the best over-all job in developing the resources of that area.

There are many, many conflicts between the interests of the different departments, the different bureaus within the Department of the Interior, and for that matter, outside bureaus in that plan. Just to give you one of the outstanding ones, the Fish and Wildlife Service, responsible for commercial fishing and for sport fishing as well, is concerned less with the dams in the Columbia that destroy the salmon runs. We know we can handle the Columbia dams without destroying the salmon runs, but we will have to do something in advance, namely, transfer the salmon spawning grounds to an area that will not be adversely affected by the dams.

But unless the dam-building program is related to the salmon spawning program you will have the extinction of the salmon in an effort to get electric power or flood control or navigation.

Likewise, one dam proposed by the Corps of Engineers would flood the only good winter grazing grounds in Glacier Park. Naturally the Park Service people are very much concerned that such a dam will ruin one of the most important natural assets of that wonderful park. So we have the responsibility of finding a way to get flood storage on the upper reaches of the Columbia without destroying a vitally important part of the national park.

You will find when these problems are presented to you that there is hardly a major resource operation in the Department of the Interior that does not overlap one or more of our own bureaus, and almost

always one or more bureaus of some other Government department. That is particularly true of the Department of Agriculture.

I am glad that the ex-Secretary of Agriculture is now a member of this committee because he can tell you first-hand how many of those problems there are and how difficult they are to deal with if you do not have a cooperative working relationship with somebody who is looking at the over-all picture.

It is just human nature if you run one bureau, say the Bureau of Reclamation, you think about reclamation before you do about fish and wildlife, or if you are responsible for fish and wildlife you think about fish and wildlife before you think about electric power. And it was our effort not to put in any interim level of administrative authority but to provide the administrative machinery for making sure that our programs fit together.

And that is the purpose of the Program Division, and I think you will see in the discussion that will come from the Under Secretary and the Assistant Secretaries, that in these vitally important problems, that operation has been exceedingly important.

You would not have Military Establishment without Chief of Staff, and the staff organization in a domestic agency, like the Department of the Interior, is even more important.

Senator BUTLER. Do not you have that chief of staff set-up beginning somewhere in the position of Secretary, Under Secretary, Assistant Secretary, and the administrative, without having this additional program staff set-up here over on the right?

As I see it now, you have under the Program Staff Divisions, a Division of Power. Also over there you have a Power Administration. Secretary KRUG. You mean on the lower line?

Senator BUTLER. Yes.

Secretary KRUG. But you see, we have two separate power administrations so designated plus the Bureau of Reclamation which is also a power agency, operating in various parts of the country. And it is vitally important that their operations be following the same ground rules. And unless you have somebody set up above that line to coordinate their activities, in no time at all you would have one of them going off in one direction and one off in another.

Senator BUTLER. There has to be coordination, of course, Mr. Secretary. And I have great confidence in Mr. Chapman, so I presume he will explain this crystal clear. I will have to admit, frankly, at the moment it is not that way to me.

Secretary KRUG. Maybe Mr. Chapman can do a better job.

Senator CORDON. Mr. Chairman, I have been studying the chart on which the Secretary has been presenting his lecture. I wonder if we could have added to it the number of persons employed in each of those activities so that we have a picture there that includes personnel as well as objectives.

Secretary KRUG. Yes; we can do that very readily. We will have to pick an arbitrary date but we will do that as of any date you like. The CHAIRMAN. I might advise the Secretary publicly of something that he already knows, that in the Appropriations Committee, when the appropriations bill for the Department of the Interior was under consideration there have frequently been many questions with respect to whether or not too many people are employed by the Department.