Mr. COLE. Why didn't Mr. Crowley know about it?

Mr. CROWLEY. I knew that but I was going to say, Mr. Cole, that we don't have any direct evidence like these letters from the services. It is a matter of discussion with the people who attend our committee

meetings.

Mr. BENNETT. You have a record of their vote, though, do you not? Mr. CROWLEY. We have minutes of the meetings.

Mr. BENNETT. There is no real recommendation that would show a vote for this thing?

Mr. CROWLEY. Not a specific recommendation but general agreement that what we are recommending is sound.

General KEIRN. When Dr. Dryden testified before the committee before he mentioned the relationship that this has had with the NACA program. You will recall when the Air Force first got into the aircraft nuclear propulsion business, they did so through a contract with a division of the Fairchild Co. known as NEPA. When this was developed, an ad hoc committee was formed for steering it, with Dr. Dryden as a member. Through this steering committee, work in the aircraft nuclear propulsion business was coordinated and directed into the NACA, into the NEPA organization, and into Oak Ridge Laboratory. NACA has had a part in this program since its inception and they have been making many studies for the ANP program. Out of these studies has grown the need for this reactor and it has been discussed with my office for some 2 or 3 years now.

Mr. DURHAM. I believe your office approved this, did it not?
General KAIRN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DURHAM. We understood that.

When can you get a decision on your location and when can you get a decision on the matter of hazard? Our committee and the Atomic Energy Commission is charged with such matters. If you can bring to the committee a decision on those two points I think the committee would be much better satisfied. Also you can put it in the record, if you can get the letters from the Air Force, as to their recommendations, if they can be put in the record, if they can't, the committee will hear them in executive session. (The letters are as follows:)

Dr. H. L. DRYDEN,

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE,
Washington, D. C., August 30, 1954.

Director, National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics,

Washington 25, D. C.

DEAR DR. DRYDEN: We have reviewed the NACA proposal for future work in the field of nuclear propulsion and particularly the proposed new component research facility, details of which were forwarded with your letter of 16 July 1954. If the NACA is to conduct basic research work in the aircraft nuclear propulsion field and provide necessary data to the military departments and to industry comparable to the manner in which they now conduct such research in the conventional propulsion field, we believe that a facility of the type proposed by the NACA is necessary and desirable.

We also believe that the NACA should be in a position to perform this function in the aircraft nuclear propulsion field and accordingly endorse the proposed component research facility provided, of course, that the NACA and the Atomic Energy Commission reach agreement on their respective fields of activity to insure that unnecessary duplication of effort and test facilities will not result.

Sincerely,

DONALD A. QUARLES.

DEAR DR. DRYDEN: This is in response to your letter of July 16 in which you requested the views of the Navy with respect to proposed future NACA work in the field of nuclear propulsion.

I have had this matter considered by the Chief of Naval Research, and he now informs me that he believes this project to be reasonable and useful. He feels also that, although the application of nuclear energy to aircraft may still be some considerable time in the future, the NACA will be the agency which will have to establish certain safety criteria as far as commercial aviation is concerned. The NACA program would be suitable to meet this need.

I am in accord with the views expressed by the Chief of Naval Research. Returned herewith is copy of NACA statement of July 8, 1954 on this subject. Sincerely yours,

DEAR DR. DRYDEN: Your letter of July 16, 1954, concerning proposed NACA work in the field of aircraft nuclear propulsion has been given careful consideration.

It is the opinion of the Air Force that the work which the NACA proposes to conduct in this field is important to the success of the development.

The need for expanded research, including the requirement for additional test facilities of the general type suggested in the enclosure to your letter, is becoming more apparent as the complex engineering problems are defined. Although development of initial prototype nuclear propulsion systems may be possible with research and test facilities currently in existence or planned by the AEC and AF, there will undoubtedly arise a need for expanded effort, including additional facilities, to support a continually increasing development program in the future. The type of research which the NACA contemplates seems essential to a progressive long-range program.

The purpose and general nature of the nuclear component test facility which you propose appear both valid and reasonable to the Air Force. Although NACA entry into the nuclear field to the extent indicated by the suggested facility may raise questions of policy which will require the attention of the AEC, it is Air Force opinion that NACA participation in nuclear propulsion research to the general extent suggested is justifiable and appropriate. Sincerely,

N. F. TWINING,

Chief of Staff, United States Air Force.

Mr. CROWLEY. I think it will be 2 or 3 months before a decision will be reached on the site location. We will try to get the service letters declassified and put in the record.

Mr. DURHAM. What will you be able to gain or what will you lose in that period?

Mr. CROWLEY. It might delay the appropriation, Mr. Chairman. The item is in our 1956 appropriation bill.

Mr. DURHAM. Is that the only reason?

Mr. CROWLEY. Yes.

Mr. DURHAM. When do you go before the Appropriations Committee?

Mr. CROWLEY. We have already been before the House Appropriations Committee.

Mr. COLE. How did you arrive at the figure of $42 million for your plant?

Mr. CROWLEY. It is a preliminary engineering estimate on the part of our engineering staff at the Lewis Laboratory.

Mr. COLE. What experience have they had in estimating the cost of these things?

Mr. CROWLEY. They have a great deal of experience in estimating the cost of aerodynamic, propulsion, and other research facilities. They also obtained advice from discussions with the Atomic Energy Commission people.

Mr. DURHAM. Are there any further questions?

Mr. PRICE. Mr. Chairman, I would hate to be in a position to unnecessarily delay this program but if we felt satisfied the NACA needed this project-and I personally feel that they do I think they have contributed a great deal to research in aeronautics. I am personally satisfied that if they work out these other details without abusing any of the authority we are giving them here; in land acquisition if they can do everything they can to hold the land down to a minimum and the cost down to a minimum, these other details will be worked out in time. I am sure they will present proper justifications to the Appropriations Committees. I think those things give us proper safeguards if we agree they should have the facilities to accomplish their purpose. I personally feel we might well report this bill. Mr. DURHAM. Are there any further statements?

Mr. KELLEHER. May I suggest Dr. Dryden's previous testimony be inserted in the record.

Mr. DURHAM. Without objection that will be done.

(The testimony of Dr. Dryden above referred to follows:)

[No. 4]

SUBCOMMITTEE HEARING ON H. R. 2581 AND H. R. 2123

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES, SUBCOMMITTEE No. 3,

Washington, D. C., Monday, February 7, 1955.

The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Carl T. Durham (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

STATEMENT OF DR. HUGH L. DRYDEN, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE FOR AERONAUTICS

Dr. DRYDEN. We have been able to simulate the temperature and pressure conditions with facilities which we have normally available at the laboratory. We have done a very limited amount of work on radiation effects, using small quantities of material obtained from the Atomic Energy Commission. It seemed to us that we were not making an effective contribution on the whole program because we were not also simulating the large radiation, neutrons, and gamma rays, to which the parts of nuclear engines and nuclear aircraft would be

subjected. The facility which is before you uses as a source of radiation what I would call by now a common garden variety of research reactor. This is a tool which becomes a source of radiation, so that we can subject materials and components to the realistic radiation temperature and pressure conditions they would meet in a nuclear powerplant.

Mr. DURHAM. What is the cost of that one, Doctor?
Dr. DRYDEN. The cost of this facility is $4,850,000.

First, I want to tell you about the coordination with the AEC and the Department of Defense: We called on Chairman Strauss and had many discussions with General Keirn and his group within the Commission who are charged with the primary responsibility for this program. As a result, I have an unclassified letter from Chairman Strauss dated October 27, 1954, which can be read into the record.

"DEAR DR. HUNSAKER: In reply to your letter of October 14, 1954, we are agreed that it is quite timely that the NACA should at this time propose to construct a component research facility for aircraft nuclear propulsion. The complexity of materials of heat transfer development problems pertaining to the application of nuclear energy to aircraft propulsion certainly warrants all the attention that can be devoted to them. In recognition of the strategic military and diplomatic advantages of truly long-range aircraft, the Commission for some years has engaged in a substantial development effort on the nuclear portion of this program, in cooperation with the Air Force and NACA, aimed at achievement of practical nuclear powerplants for this purpose. While substantial progress has been made, much remains to be done to augment and extend our knowledge.

"The Commission approves wholeheartedly the project you have proposed." I may interject that this received the formal action of the full Commission, and was not merely the action of the Chairman. I continue to quote from Chairman Strauss' letter:

"It will be pleased to review the plans for your new facility to make such suggestions as are appropriate and to render such other technical assistance as it can."

"Sincerely yours,

"LEWIS STRAUSS, Chairman."

Now similar letters-but unfortunately classified-have been received from Donald Quarles, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Research and Development. His letter contained the proviso that we should, of course, clear with the AEO and avoid duplication with their programs.

We have similar classified letters from the Air Force and the Navy. These could be shown to the committee, but cannot be placed in the open record.

Mr. DURHAM. Doctor, at this point I think it is well to discuss this item pretty fully. I have some views on it. I am of the definite opinion that you should have had it probably long ago. I think it is almost necessary in the type of work you do in nuclear-powered engines, of which, of course, we expect to build more in the future.

Dr. DRYDEN. Mr. Chairman, I think we will have to come back to this for full discussion. I wonder if I might run through the rest of the program? Mr. DURHAM. All right.

Dr. DRYDEN. There is one other point in connection with this Lewis facility: Of the $4,850,000, $270,000 is estimated for the purchase of approximately 500 acres of land. We expect to have a site survey made by a competent consulting firm. We cannot, we think, locate this on the present site of the laboratory, because of the precautions that are necessary in connection with nuclear reactors. We do feel that it will be possible to locate this research reactor in the general vicinity of Cleveland, so that we do not have to build up an elaborate supporting organization in connection with its operation. It can be operated as an auxiliary station of our Cleveland laboratory, just as we operate the small pilotless-flight range as an auxiliary station of our Langley laboratory. We can do it that way at far less cost than if we went a long distance and tried to build up a completely new laboratory.

I think you will want to come back to this point.

The other point to mention is this: I think you gentlemen are always interested in what the operating cost of new facilities that you authorize is likely to be. The estimated operating cost of this facility is about $375,000 per year. The entire personnel complement would be about 70.

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask about this item of land.
Mr. DURHAM. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. That is, 500 acres on page 4.

Isn't there any land you can get without adding the 500 acres?

Dr. DRYDEN. It is possible the site selected will be on federally owned land. Our present difficulty is we cannot proceed too vigorously until we know whether land acquisition is authorized. We will then have to make a site study. We have to comply with all the safety requirements of the AEC. There are some Federal sites which may possibly be suitable. This authority is requested so we don't have to come back to you again, if it does not prove possible to use federally owned land.

Mr. DURHAM. Mr. Doyle, at that point, since we have opened up this matter for discussion, this is the reactor; this year the AEC has a very large program of building reactors all over the country for research facilities, and, of course, they all use some amount of fissionable material. What has disturbed me a little bit, Doctor, is the fact that every art-of course, last year the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy did not have authorizing power, but they do have under the new legislation. I discussed this item with Mr. Cole and also with the Chairman, and last year the Army came in and asked for a reactor, the Navy came in and asked for a reactor, and it looked to me as if we should at least have all of this facility flowing from one point; not get it scattered all over if we could help it. I don't know whether the committee members will agree with me or not, but I am of the opinion that since there is a committee that has authorizing power now that this item should go to that committee.

I understand how it got here, and I am for it, understand. I think you should have it. I think you should have had it last year, but you didn't ask for it. I feel that this item should go over, and come in new legislation. If the committee feels the same way, I think it would give for much better construction of this whole system, since it is also closely related, hazards, and everything else, and then you don't get into this field of confusion on Capitol Hill.

Dr. DRYDEN. From my point of view, the handling of the legislation is a congressional matter. We were authorized by the Bureau of the Budget to send it over in one document, and this we did. Now it is up to the Congress to decide what committee should consider it, and we are quite willing to appear before any committee.

Mr. DURHAM. The main disturbance, of course, is the use of the fissionable material because, after all, you have to go to the Commission for that directly. You can't get it from any other source.

Dr. DRYDEN. That is correct.

Mr. DURHAM. It is all controlled by them, and it is your field element you have to have.

Dr. DRYDEN. Mr. Chairman, General Keirn, from the Commission, who heads the program on nuclear propulsion of aircraft, is with us this morning. You may want to ask him some questions about this.

Dr. DRYDEN. I tried to summarize it earlier in this way: The new equipment is for two purposes: One is to support the nuclear powerplant development in the same way that we have been doing in the development of the jets, the ram jets, and the rockets. Two, to do the basic research supporting the long-range ballistic missile development.

Mr. DURHAM. Can't we practically understand when we authorize this research instrument in the nuclear field that we provided one already for the Army, we provided one for the Navy. Now we could provide one for the Air Force to a certain extent?

Dr. DRYDEN. May I tell you what I conceive to be the principal difference? As I understand it, the research reactor of the Navy will be used primarily for materials for use in submarine and ship powerplants.

Mr. DURHAM. That is correct.

Dr. DRYDEN. The one that we are requesting is primarily for aircraft powerplants, and the one the Army has is primarily for the portable power in remote areas. I don't say, as Mr. Doyle has mentioned, that you cannot do both with one facility, but the program is so large that you are certainly going to have more than one facility working on the submarine, ship, aircraft, and stationary powerplant problems.

Mr. DURHAM. Do you have any further statements to make, General?