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Mr. Wilson. Are the other services doing the same thing?

Captain MARTINEAU. I believe they have very much of a parallel program.

Mr. Wilson. I know of a radar technician, out 6 months, trained in a critical field: he has been out 6 months and they won't let him come back unless he drops down. He has two dependents and because of that can't get in and he is crying to get in. The Navy plan looks very good.

If you go back you will be able to pick up a lot of men who got out before the idea of a pay increase got going. But when they see the pay increase and the incentive in pay they will want to get back in.

Captain MARTINEAU. No question about it.

Mr. Gavix. When have you begun the extension of 3 months to a year!

('aptain MARTINEAU. We inaugurated that last December, and the reaction has been good. We reserve the right in the Navy to name the rating. It is not blanket authority. We will not do that for every rating.

Mr. KILDAY. How about the officer who goes off duty and enlists. What rating does he get?

('aptain MARTINEAT. That is not encouraged and I don't know of any instances where it has occurred.

It least, pay grade E-7. Or at least sergeant first class.

In other words, the answer to your question, sir, would be in pay grade E-6 or E-7if he were accepted for enlistment.

Mr. KILDAY. And in the Air Force? Colonel WELLS. At one time it was E-4. I am not exactly certain what it is at the moment.

Mr. Kilday. Back in 1947, didn't you encourage men who went off active duty as officers to come in by a blanket offer of master sergeant. Wasn't that true in the Air Force ?

Colonel WELLS. Yes, sir.
Mr.KILDAY. That is no longer true.

Colonel W'ELLS. I am informed that we now make a determination in each individual case.

There are some people who come back in as E-6's and E-7's, I understand, but we could furnish more definite information.

Mr. KILDAY. Didn't the policy of enlisting him as master sergeant serve to fill that grade to the point of stymieing promotions?

Colonel Wells. Yes. It was one of the reasons why the program was discontinued. It was a bad moral-factor to the people in the lower grades who could see the upper grades being filled up with exofficers.

Mr. KILDAY. What is the condition of your master-sergeant grade now? Is it overpopulated ?

Colonel WELLS. I think we are close to 100 percent.

Mr. Kulday. Aren't you above strength in master sergeant? Aren't you up to 110 or more?

Colonel WELLS. I do not have thn exact figures, but they will be furnished for the record.

(The figures follow :)

AUTHORIZED VERSUS PROGRAMED STRENGTHS OF AIR FORCE MASTER SERGEANT,

TECHNICAL SERGEANT, AND STAFF SERGEANT PAY GRADES E-7, E-6, AND E-5

1. As of June 30, 1955, the strength figures of Air Force noncommissioned officers versus T/O requirements are as follows:

[blocks in formation]

NOTE.-Promotion quotas are established in this manner to provide an even flow of promotions into the senior noncommissioned grades in an attempt to avoid complete stagnation in these grades.

2. Even though 60,000 airmen are promoted to the grade of staff sergeant yearly, the Air Force is not able to maintain authorized strength for these grades.

3. For fiscal year 1956 it is anticipated that sufficient airmen in grades E-4 will not become qualified to permit the Air Force to fill authorized vacancies.

Mr. KILDAY. How about the Army?

Colonel BRINCKMANN. We have definitely frozen it. We cannot make any promotions in that grade.

Mr. KILDAY. But you still take the officer in as master sergeant.
Colonel BRINCKMANN. Yes.

There is a cutoff date which determine whether it will be sergeant first class or master sergeant. I don't recall the date.

Captain MARTINEAU. The Navy is over populated in some of the higher ratings.

Mr. Kilpay. Isn't that a bad problem?

Captain MARTINEAU. Yes. It has existed since the end of World War II. During World War II it was possible for men to reach the highest enlisted rating in very short time. Some made it in 3 or 4 years. Under temporary appointment and to aid recruiting and the problem as it existed at that time, Congress authorized every temporary appointment at the end of the war to become a permanent appointment. So the great majority who had reached the E-7 rating took advantage of that and shipped in under a permanent appointment without regard to limitations. So that did produce a surplus in the E-7 grade which exists today and will continue to exist until those men reach the 20 years' service point and go on the inactive list.

Mr. BLANDFORD. This is worse than it sounds. If you have 98 percent enlistment rate you are only losing 2 percent of your chief petty officers and master sergeants.

You are now overstrength in your chief petty officers and 98 percent of those people are reenlisting, and if you have to wait 10 years before those people are eligible for retirement, something will have give.

Mr. MILLER. That is the point I am getting at. Mr. ARENDS. We have a hump in that class. Mr. MILLER. Yes. Captain MARTINEAU. That has existed since World War II. Mr. Kilday. We talked about that in the committee. By enlisting all of them as E-7 you are going to overpopulate the grade and it was thought by the service at that time it would not overpopulate the grade.

Captain MARTINEAU. Ten years or thereafter, at the rate we are going now we will have a serious deficiency in that grade. We are not retaining the men in grade today who are the master sergeants of tomorrow.

Mr. MILLER. Isn't that the very thing we are confronted with in the case of the officers?

Captain MARTINEAU. The problem is parallel.

Mr. MILLER. I am for a pay bill but I don't see how all the fine figures you have set up are going to help solve the problem.

Maybe I am very dense on it, but I don't see where it is going to help any.

Captain MARTINEAU. It is our feeling that to solve this career incentive problem we have to accomplish two things if we are going to retain a man in service that we want today.

First, we are going to have to give him an immediate and substantial pay increase, so he will have more money today. That is step No. 1.

Step No. 2. In addition we have got to provide incentive increases at later points in the career so that the career will be worth while for him to stay, to go through the normal promotion path and inspire him to attain the grade of E-7 and the higher commissioned grades. It would not be enough to give him an immediate increase. I know that because I have read numerous letters of resignation from the officers who are leaving the service today and one of their greatest complaints is the goal ahead is no longer enough.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Perhaps Admiral Grenfell can answer-how many of these people are going out of the enlisted category, E-5, 6, or 7, and going in the warrant officer program, the officer candidate class

Admiral GRENFELL. We have many other active programs which the chief petty officer can go to. Last week we appointed some 290 chief petty officers into the officer candidate school. They were selected for that.

A short time ago we selected 300 warrant officers from the chief and petty officer grades. The LDO programs took in 130. There are other programs. There is the seamen to admiral program. We are again opening up to help the officer picture and take some of the chief petty officers out of that hump.

Mr. BLANDFORD. That would be true in the Army and Air Force officer except the limited duty officer.

Mr. KILDAY. Any more question? If not, we go to the next topic.
Captain MARTINEAU. I would like to mention one more.
Mr. KILDAY. Go ahead.

Captain MARTINEAU. Taking the Navy, taking the grade of radarmen. I have some figures here for the 12 months, December 1953 to December 1954.

Of all the radarmen whose enlistments expired during that period, 4.8 percent of them reenlisted.

Mr. MILLER. What grade are they!

Captain MARTINEAU. Those are all of the petty officer grades, namely E-7, 6, 5, and 4. Of the E-7's we had 100 percent reenlistment. But of the E-6, first-class petty officers, technical sergeant, only 24 percent of those men reenlisted, despite the fact that they were E-6's.

Mr. MILLER. Isn't that because the E-6's see no place in this particular grade. One of the reasons I brought this up was just one of these men who was an E-6 whom I know is going to get out at the end of his next enlistment. It will be 10 or 12 years.

Captain MARTINEAU. Speaking of the E-6, radarmen-
Mr. MILLER. He is a radarman over in the Pacific right now.

Captain MARTINEAU. He made it in his third or fourth year of service I would estimate.

Mr. MILLER. I don't know.

Captain MARTINEAU. But he made it early. As a radarman he has tremendous opportunities. These electronic companies are advertising in the service papers. They say we want graduates of the electronic schools. I am going to show them at an appropriate time.

Mr. KILDAY. Let's see them now.

Captain MARTINEAU. These are advertisements that have appeared in the Navy Times.

Mr. ARENDS. On that ratio in the two different categories, a large percent of the boys were looking at the hump. Is there any way of telling what boys indicated they would like to stay!

Captain MARTINEAU. I would say they were looking at two things. They were looking at the hump and the opportunity on the outside.

Mr. ARENDS. But there is no way of telling whether some wanted to stay in.

Captain MARTINEAU. Except we have conducted surveys in the various services and we have asked them why are you getting out.

Very few have said because of the hump or no promotion, but said it was because of the pay.

Mr. BLANDFORD. These ads are only for graduate engineers.
Captain MARTINEAU. We have some more.

Admiral GRENFELL. The first-class petty officers can jump that hump and do it frequently. They can jump it if they are good enough. They do not have to go through chief or petty officers ranks to become LDO's.

Mr. MILLER. Isn't it in this grade we are talking about you do everything you can to keep them where they are?

Captain MARTINEAU. The radarman we would love to have as an electronics officer if we could get them. We are shy of those, sir.

Mr. MILLER. Very shy. Captain MARTINEAU. Next one. Next one, (reading) "If you are a college graduate with service education, or experience in electronics”.

Now, by engineers they do not necessarily mean graduate engineers. They mean enlisted men in the Navy and the other services with technical training.

That is all.

it.

Mr. Wilson. Is there any truth to the story a lot of these large corporations have discontinued their training school because they know the military is conducting a wonderful training course for them? I understand that is the case.

Captain MARTINEAU. I cannot answer that categorically but I would say there is a good deal of substance to it in part. There is no question about it, the service schools today and the technical ratings are probably the greatest in the world. They have to be for the equipment we are taking care of today. We have to have the finest technical training in the world today and we get

And the smart, up-and-coming businesses are competing for these men. They want them.

Mr. Wilson. Might this not be a good point to discuss the technical training the men are getting?

It seems to me if we are giving these men this valuable training there ought to be some obligations connected with that that made sure we get some of our training back. Captain MARTINEAU. We do to the highest extent possible.

In other words, a young man comes in, he is recruited into the service. He goes through recruit training and he gets a battery of tests, as we attempt to find out what he has a capacity for. There is an urgent demand at all times for maintenance personnel in the service and we could not say “We are not going to give any technical training to you, Jones, unless you sign up for 2 years,” because we do not get enough to fill the jobs we have today.

So we give the minimum training to this young man coming in, but We try not to give him too much. But enough so he can go out and take care of at least the basic equipment. For the more advanced courses we want some more from him.

We say, "you have to agree to extend your enlistment for 1 year or 2 years to get this training,” and since that training is required for advancement in many of the technical ratings they agree in some cases to stay.

Mr. MILLER. Does that apply in the Air Force ?
Captain MARTINEAU. Yes, and in the Army.
Mr. GAVIN. What is the average time?

Captain MARTINEAU. The average time is 1 year. In some long courses it is 2 years.

Mr. Gavin. Do you ask him to extend for 3 or 4 years in some of the more important assignments?

Captain MARTINEAU. We judge it on the length of the course and the difficulty of it and the expense of maintaining the schools. But we do try to keep that in mind.

That is the point I would like to make, Mr. Wilson. We are not just giving these courses to anybody. We are trying to get the most out of it, and we are requiring people to sign up for the longest we can and still get them in the school. Mr. KILDAY. The longer it is the more difficult it is to get them? Captain MARTINEAU. Yes. Mr.KILDAY. Now we are ready for the next topic. To which shall we proceed? Captain MARTINEAU. Whichever you care for, Mr. Chairman. We are now finished with the pay tables and that takes us to the top of page 3 of the bill.

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