the military went on with TACAN for quite a period of time. And the two systems were in conflict and now we finally resolved that apparently, but the money we have spent on DME is gone and I don't know how you conceive that VOR won't pass out of the picture sooner or later, too, as the new airplanes come in and new equipment.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. We think, Senator, that VOR will be with us for many years.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, because of the necessity of adding new equipment. But I want to say for the members of the committee now we have got two systems still going, the commercial planes will get their azimuth from VOR, if I am correct, and their direction from TACAN, and the private planes will get their azimuth from VOR and directions. from TACAN, but the military planes will get everything from TACAN.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. The tactical military aircraft will; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And the result was, I think, many millions of dollars were lost. And then there was some suggestion that a lot of this fight was due to the people who made the two different system. I don't know whether that is correct or not. But it ran into millions and millions of dollars because the two couldn't get together. Any further questions?

Senator SCHOEPPEL. I have no further.

Senator SMATHERS. Let me ask you, I didn't get to hear Mr. Rothschild's statement, but this Board, what is your recommendation as to how this Board will be appointed and how it will be made up?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. The Board would be made up of the Secretary of Defense, Secretary of Commerce, and a chairman who would be appointed by the President.

Senator SMATHERS. Secretary of Defense and Secretary of Commerce, and a chairman that would be appointed by the President? Mr. ROTHSCHILD. Yes.

Senator SMATHERS. That brings up the question, what is your reasoning as to why there should not be any confirmation by the Senate for this sort of thing.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. I don't have any opinion on that. But I am sure General Curtis will.

Senator SMATHERS. You have no
Mr. ROTHSCHILD. No, sir.
Senator SMATHERS. All right, sir.
Senator MONRONEY. Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

objection to it then?

Thank you very much.

Senator MONRONEY. Do you think that the provision for the appointment of the Administrator with the Secretary of Commerce and the Secretary of Defense sitting on the Board is going to relieve the big fault that has existed all along in getting direct action, and somebody with authority to do something about implementing decisions that are made on the improvement of air navigation or the scheduling of new air routes and things of that kind?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. This Board would not be charged with such duties, Senator Monroney. This Board's activities would be confined to research-and-development activities in the field of equipment for air navigation and communications.

Senator MONRONEY. Wasn't that the trouble on TACAN, that you had no definite responsibility so the military went ahead and developed theirs and the CAA developed theirs.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. That couldn't happen again under this setup. The CHAIRMAN. Well, it could happen. I think this improves the situation, because at least this Board can make a decision. But it could happen that Commerce would decide not to accept it, or the military will say, well, we will go on with our own.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. I don't believe they would have their own, Mr. Chairman.

This Board may take from either department or from anywhere else any research, any development project and say this is our responsibility, and we will develop this, and after it is developed, then it will be offered to the various services and if at that time the services say well this is fine as far as you have gone, but you haven't developed something we can use, then it will be up to this Board to develop something better.

The CHAIRMAN. I say I think this improves the situation, but there is still no directive to carry out the mandate of this Board. That brings me to page 6 of the bill, line 15, which I think the committee wants to look at very carefully. The bill suggested by General Curtis' group in section 4 says "the Board upon unanimous decision." Mr. ROTHSCHILD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That would put you right back where you started. Mr. ROTHSCHILD. May transfer to itself any functions.

The CHAIRMAN. Why wouldn't you say upon majority?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. Well, I understand that would not be possible. The people who prepared this bill say that inasmuch as this takes from a Secretary to whom certain functions have been delegated some of those functions, he has to agree.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chairman could side in with either side in this case; couldn't he?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. What the Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose they are going to take something away from your department, and you told your representative, or if you were on the Board, "Well, we are against that." Defense says it should be taken out. Then the Chairman would make the decision; wouldn't he?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. No, sir; it would have to be unanimous. The Chairman would have to agree

The CHAIRMAN. We will check into that. I don't know any reason why they can't make it majority.

Senator SMATHERS. Then why do you have to get the approval of the President?

There may be good reasons.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. Well, all of the executive functions are given to the President.

Senator SMATHERS. I understand that.

But do you think it is a good idea to put it in there?

He probably would have the authority were it not written. It just means that you have to get unanimous agreement among the three, and then you have got to go up and ask the President who undoubtedly. no matter who he is, is not too familiar with the problem. Just why was that in there?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. It was not in the original draft, and the people who drew the bill thought it had to be in there in order to be legal. Senator SMATHERS. All right, sir.

Senator MONRONEY. Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, the Senator from Oklahoma.

Senator MONRONEY. You said a while ago, I believe, that all this Board function, what it would do would be to originate and bring about experimentation and improvement, and testing of air navigation facilities and aids and plans. It is not a direct action group, that is why you thought you did not need a single administrator with power to act; is that not correct?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. The Chairman of this group will, in effect, be a single administrator, Senator Monroney.

Senator MONRONEY. How can he be, when he is operating not with any one individual but with representatives of the Secretary of Commerce, and the Secretary of Defense?

I mean, he doesn't have the ear of either Mr. Weeks or Mr. Wilson. He has a representative of Department of Defense who is going to be there, not with an open mind, I fear, as many of these men have not had an open mind in the past representing branches of the services, but to merely represent that particular service's viewpoint.

I should think that you would have far less than a board that could sit down together and come up with the determination as the Board normally would work, when it is a delegation of authority from the Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of Commerce to someone in their Department acting for them.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. One of the things which this board would supplant is the Air Navigation Development Board which has been a twoman Board.

And unless there was agreement among the two members of that Board-and I have been one of them-nothing ever happened.

In this proposal there will be three members, and a majority vote will be determining. So there can't ever be a stalemate.

Senator SMATHERS. It says here unanimous decision.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. That is only on the takeover of functions.
Senator SMATHERS. I see.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. But in the action of the Board in its research. and development programs, Senator Smathers, majority vote will rule.

Senator MONRONEY. I am afraid you are getting right back to where you are with the Air Navigation Development Board, and all these other committees. We have had committees stacked on top of committees and layers of divisions of powers among various departments and it has hampered the technical development that CAA was ready to go ahead and do.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. May I refer you to page 2, line 6 of the bill?

All actions of the Board except those relating to transfers of functions as provided in section 4 of this Act shall be by affirmative vote of a majority of its members.

Senator MONRONEY. I realize that. But when you are operating with not even members of the Board but with stand-ins for members of the Board, I wonder whether you might not have postponement, delay, indecision, that has plagued us all along in the adoption of new

facilities that has held back the development of modern equipment of the airways until quite recently when you got your CAA program to rolling, has delayed the adoption of new transcontinental airway systems. You are familiar with that. And I just think that the whole setup is one designed for inaction rather than action, and this has got to be an action program if you are going to bring about the type of equipment that we must have to meet the crisis that is on the airways today.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. Senator Monroney, this is designed to do just what you hope it will do. If there is a better way of doing it, we would certainly want to know about it.

Senator MONRONEY. Wouldn't one single administrator be better, with the authority to act? I mean, after getting advice, maybe, from 3 or 4 departments, to have him have the authority to just decide these things, and go forward with them.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. General Curtis spent more than a year on this, and I think perhaps his opinion would be better than mine at that point of questioning.

Senator MONRONEY. That is all I have.

There is nothing in this report that this Board is expected to do that will probably be usable for the present crisis on the airways for 4 or 5 years; is that not correct?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. No, sir.

Senator MONRONEY. This is a planning and developmental operation that the CAA must go forward with the things that now have been developed, that are now ready, that orders have been placed for some, other orders will be placed for radar and other things, so that actually this product of this Board will, in the machinery and the equipment, take hold in about 4 to 5 years.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. Some things would be as far away as that, but others would be nearer to accomplishment, because it would take over those functions which are currently being conducted by the Air Navigation Development Board and other elements of Defense and Com

merce.

Senator MONRONEY. That is all I have.

Senator MAGNUSON. Any further questions?

Senator THURMOND. I would like to ask him a question, Mr. Chair

man.

Senator MAGNUSON. Senator Thurmond, go ahead.

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Rothschild, as a policy I am opposed to any more agencies of Government being created. I think a lot we have now ought to be consolidated, unless there is a dire necessity for it.

Are you convinced that the best way to handle this problem, which is a very important problem and which I thoroughly recognize, is through the establishment of a new board? Or could this be handled under the CAB or CAA or some existing board?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. I am sure it cannot be handled under any one of the present agencies, Senator Thurmond. And this is not a new agency in that it adds one more to the whole, because it also supplants one, so there is no net gain in number of agencies. This will supplant the Air Navigation Development Board, and will. I think, be able to operate where the Board was inhibited in its operations, the previous Board.

But this could not be handled unilaterally in my judgment by either the Department of Defense or Department of Commerce or any of its constituent agencies.

Senator THURMOND. And you feel that it is necessary for this Board to be set up to accomplish the mission that is designed.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. Well, as I said to Senator Monroney, perhaps there is a better way, but if there is, we haven't thought of it.

Senator THURMOND. Senator Monroney brought up a good point a few minutes ago about selecting one man and putting the responsibility on him and holding him responsible for the job getting done. My experience as a governor of a State has been that that is the most effective way to get results rather than having a board of a considerable number of members. Do you have any particular reason why you think that there should be a board here instead of having an adininistrator who could administer the purposes of this act?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. Well, I think that both the Departments of Defense and Commerce have a very grave and vital interest in what goes on in this Board or in this field, and they must have representation in the determinations that are to be made. A way, as we see it the best way, of getting that representation is by having a board with each of those Departments a member of the Board.

Senator THURMOND. That is all.

Senator MONRONEY. Mr. Chairman, could I ask a question?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator MONRONEY. At the present time, your $800 million modernization of the airways program has been held up and delayed some, hasn't it, by the failure of military to permit these new crosscountry airways to be established?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. We have had some problems in that area; yes, sir. Senator MONRONEY. And who can resolve that once the military throws the veto on it, says they need the airspace or it would be damaging to their installations at certain points to permit the cross-country airway to be established?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. You realize that is a problem apart from this consideration.

Senator MONRONEY. That is just exactly what I am getting at. I mean, how can you have air navigation modernization if you have not reached down to where you are going to run the road in the first place?

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. Senator, this Airways Modernization Board has never been thought of as taking over the full operation of the airways of the United States. This is done for one single purpose, and that is to try to determine what sorts of electronic equipment are best suited to do this job.

Senator MONRONEY. I think you give a little more power than that when you read the duties of the Board on page 2, as I do.

I think it suggests at least that this is being sold to the country, and I had hoped it would be, as the one thing that was going to break the bottleneck on throwing into gear this modernization of airways and giving us a system that can handle today's traffic, and that is to be expected in the next 5 years.

Mr. ROTHSCHILD. This Board is to develop the electronic components of such a system. It is not to install them, it is not to buy them, it is

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