I think the Secretary has done a commendable job picturing the world which might exist if totalitarian power were to come, but I think we should also look down this road and ask ourselves what might happen if we go a part of the way and find we are not getting the job done. We are starting on a course, we are here seriously considering a change of a 150-year-old national policy while only looking out of one eye down one part of the road and I think in the course of these hearings we ought to get down to where the facts are.

Secretary HULL. There are thousands-everything you want if you care to come over to the Department and run over the details of these things. I have said that before. I invited all of you over there during the neutrality discussion. I think some of you gentlemen were along, and I told you as much as I knew. Our earnest effort is to be frank and do teamwork with every Member of both Houses of Congress.

Mr. MUNDT. I think it is a commendable attitude the Secretary has always taken, and I think that his Department as a representative executive department, and the Members of the legislative branch of the Government ought to do teamwork toward keeping us out of war. You have devoted most of your discussion toward aiding England and her associates, and I am trying to focus some attention on the other fork of the road, that of keeping this country out of war.

Secretary HULL. Yes.

Mr. MUNDT. I think we should keep those two things clearly before us and talk in one-syllable words.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jonkman.

Mr. JONKMAN. Mr. Secretary, assuming that under this bill the President should authorize the Secretary of War and the Secretary of the Navy to sell, lease, or transfer articles of defense, we will say, to England, does the bill contain the direct or implied power for the delivery of those articles in American ships?

Secretary HULL. I do not recall that those provisions in the Neutrality Act are affected. I thought that I had stripped out of the Neutrality Act the principal provisions that were affected by the provisions of the bill; and that is not one of them, I think. If I am mistaken, I will be glad to correct it.

Mr. JONKMAN. Are you able to say he has the direct or implied power given under this bill?

Secretary HULL. Well, as I say, I do not think this bill modifies. those prohibitory provisions in the Neutrality Act. That is my recollection. If I am in error, I will correct that.

Mr. JONKMAN. Would you say that the emergency or the crisis, as we call it, is more acute now than it was say in September or October, when, for instance, the American people felt that Germany might be able, possibly, to invade Britain, and when we felt that Italy was a powerful ally, both of which facts seem to have been discontinued? Do you feel the situation is as acute now as it was at that time?

Secretary HULL. I doubt if I could express myself more accurately and more fully than I did in building up the facts which pertain, and which are controlling facts upon this subject during recent years and coming down to the present. The danger, unquestionably, is not any less. I do not like to give all of the details of my information on that, subject.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Bolton.

Mrs. BOLTON. Mr. Secretary, I have listened with a great deal of interest to your statement and your paper, and my questions-I realize that we are here to use what we know to the best of our ability; and in order to bring about as clear an understanding as possible on some points, I wonder if you would have objection to our former Ambassadors, Mr. Bullitt and Mr. Kennedy, appearing before this committee?

The CHAIRMAN. The Chairman will answer that. I do not think that is a question for the Secretary. If Mr. Bullitt or Mr. Kennedy or any other person expresses an intention or desire to appear before the committee we will take up the question of inviting them to be here. Mr. FISH. I understood her question was if the Secretary has any objection to their appearing. I think that is a perfectly proper inquiry.

The CHAIRMAN. I have to differ with you. The chairman has repeatedly stated, privately and in the press, that we welcome any witness either for or against this legislation, if they will express the desire to appear before the committee; and whether the Secretary or any other person has any objection to anyone appearing before the committee is something I do not think has anything to do with this legislation.

Mrs. BOLTON. I am simply asking that question because it seems to me that perhaps the Secretary would have some interest in it. Mr. FISH. Has the Chair ruled the question out of order?

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair rules that it has nothing to do with the legislation and I do not believe that the Secretary should be requested to answer such a question because if the Secretary should answer yes or no, it is still for the committee to decide who is to appear and when they are to appear before this committee.

Mr. FISH. Mr. Chairman, I think the Secretary has demonstrated his ability to take care of himself as to what questions he ought to answer, and if answering this question would embarrass him, he could so state.

Secretary HULL. I might say that there is no embarrassment in

any way.

Mrs. BOLTON. I did not mean it to be.

Secretary HULL. I am glad to hear that.

In the second place, these gentlemen have perfect liberty to use their own judgment and state of mind in passing on any suggestion or invitation from this committee or other committees, in and out of Congress.

They are charged, of course, with some degree of discretion in talking publicly or to those who might be interested in making some of these rather delicate questions public. That is up to them, whatever they want to do. I am sure they will, and you will cooperate with them in keeping off topics which we all do not wish to make public at this time.

Mrs. BOLTON. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. I would not for a moment embarrass the State Department in any way.

I have only one other question. It is one that is asked continuously, and as a representative of my district I would be much interested if I could obtain an answer.

Am I right in understanding your statement and the answers to questions you have given that you feel that the defense question is of such paramount importance as to outweigh all others at the moment and that therefore the fact that the bill as drawn authorizes practically totalitarian powers is secondary?

Secretary HULL. On that matter as I have said several times today, every person has his own judgment and his own suggestion.

The only point I make is that it would be exceedingly unwise, as I view it, it would be exceedingly unwise to delay indefinitely, because of a few technicalities, an adequate method of meeting what my friend there and I characterize an unprecedented state of danger. And I want to plead with you to cooperate in that respect, as I am sure you will be disposed to do.

Mrs. BOLTON. I trust the Secretary knows that no member of this committee has anything at heart but the safety of America. Secretary HULL. I would hate to think otherwise.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you finished?

Mrs. BOLTON. Yes, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Tinkham.

Mr. TINKHAM. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to use any more time of the committee. My questions, I think, have been sufficient. The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Rogers.

Mrs. ROGERS. Mr. Secretary, there was a good deal of confusion and noise this morning and I am not sure that I understood everything that you said; but did I understand that you feel that allowing British or foreign ships to come into this country to be reconditioned and repaired and the use of our navy yards was in effect a breach of international law, or contrary to international law?

Secretary HULL. I beg your pardon; I feel that it would be in harmony with the law of national defense, and I would not displace the law of national defense for some other rules that have been scrapped completely, so far as defensive efforts are concerned.

Mrs. ROGERS. But in effect it really would be contrary to international law?

You know, Mr. Secretary, we are seeking proof and it seems to me that your statement-and I have read it over during the lunch period-speaks in generalities, you make general statements; you do not give us facts. I remember, Mr. Secretary, when you were a member of the Ways and Means Committee how extremely searching your questions were. I remember that no witness was allowed to go until he gave full information concerning what he knew.

Secretary HULL. My questions were much simpler than yours, however.

Mrs. ROGERS. Your questions were not very simple to the witnesses, and I know they would have to tell all they knew before they left the witness stand.

Another question, Mr. Secretary. Will not the passage of this bill constitute an overt act against Germany and Italy?

Secretary HULL. Not unless necessary national defense is such an

act.

Mrs. ROGERS. Yes; but you have stated, if I heard you correctly, that Germany and Italy have committed no overt acts against us. Is that correct?

Secretary HULL. They have given us what many of us think is not only full and ample concern about the world nature of their movement but they have been constantly repeating it.

Mrs. ROGERS. It is correct that our situation today is quite different from the situation of Poland and Czechoslovakia, in that a part of Poland and Czechoslovakia were countries made out of the World War and Germany felt that they were a part of Germany-and I am not defending her, and am not going into that angle of it--but they are in a different status than this country.

Secretary HULL. And to carry the example further, what about Norway, Denmark, and Belgium?

Mrs. ROGERS. Of course they are very much closer than we are. Secretary HULL. Distance does not count so much these days if an invader nation gets to going good.

Mrs. ROGERS. Mr. Secretary, another thing you spoke of a great deal was the Western Hemisphere. I have a resolution pending, I think before the State Department, inquiring as to communistic and Nazi activities in other American republics; the communistic and Nazi activities, and I hope that we may have that information for consideration. It would enable us to more intelligently pass on this bill if we had that information.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, the Chair feels that has nothing to do with the legislation pending before this committee. It is now before the Foreign Affairs Committee and it will be acted upon at the proper time; the letter sent by the Secretary of State concerning it will be presented to the committee at the proper time and acted upon, so I rule the question out of order.

Mrs. ROGERS. I ask the same question in another way, Mr. Secretary: Have you any information regarding Nazi and communistic activities in other American republics that would be of value to this committee in passing this legislation? You have stated that you knew of them.

Secretary HULL. Yes. When I went to the Habana conference I brought back more or less information and that is in the files; it was made public at that time: the efforts at economic penetration, the efforts of subversive activities, both from the inside and the outside. The Department of Justice and the F. B. I., what is known as the Dies committee, and numerous other agencies have collected information and have more or less information on this general subject.

Mrs. ROGERS. The Dies committee deals with those activities in this country, but we have no information before this committee about other countries.

Secretary HULL. You are still thinking now about South America? Mrs. ROGERS. The other American republics.

Secretary HULL. Yes, I mention that in my statement this morning, that we are combating that and have been right along.

Mrs. ROGERS. Yes.

Secretary HULL. That will give you a general picture, but that has been among our efforts down there. I have quite a number of things on file, and you are welcome to read every page.

Mrs. ROGERS. Will you send that to the committee as a whole? You know, Mr. Secretary when one member goes down to the Department you tell us certain things and when we come back and talk with.

other members of the committee, someone will say, "I think perhaps. you did not hear the Secretary correctly." But if you tell it to the whole committee we would have it for consideration in the hearings; we would all know exactly the same thing.

Secretary HULL. Maybe so, in some executive session.

Mrs. ROGERS. Could you tell us exactly why you think we are in danger of being invaded by Germany; some details other than by general statements?

Secretary HULL. I have given you a great many things, and delivered speeches every time anyone would listen to me and given more reasons and more facts. And I will be glad to get together all the evidence, or as much of it as may be desired on this matter and bring

it to you.

Mrs. ROGERS. It seems to me that this committee, which is the committee that handles foreign affairs, should be told. Secretary HULL. Yes.

Mrs. ROGERS. We should have complete information.

Secretary HULL. I shall be only too glad to cooperate with you in every possible way.

Mrs. ROGERS. It seems to me, Mr. Secretary, that you have taken an evasive attitude in some of your answers; that sometimes you have not given to us quite the full cooperation

Secretary HULL. That is what I am very earnestly striving against. The greatest need is more unity in this country, if we know how to bring it about.

Mrs. ROGERS. I think the country would thoroughly rely on any program you and the President might suggest if it was shown why it should be behind that program.

We all went through the last war and we do not want to take steps that will necessarily lead us into war.

Secretary HULL. Sometimes on these extremely critical matters where people have deep convictions it is hard for us to convince each other.

Mrs. ROGERS. We cannot be convinced unless we have the facts. It is very hard for us to feel that foreign countries have facts, I know they do, Mr. Secretary, but this Foreign Affairs Committee does not have them.

Secretary HULL. You had them all when we had up the Neutrality Act and I do not think I got the vote of several of you that I thought I should have had.

Mrs. ROGERS. I am sorry, I did not hear that.

Secretary HULL. I say, you had all the facts I could get together here in Washington in the neutrality discussions, and I am not sure whether I got as many votes as I ought to have had on that.

Mrs. ROGERS. Now you are asking to scrap that Neutrality Act. I voted against it because I thought it would not keep this country out of unfortunate foreign entanglements. Now, it seems to me you are asking to scrap it. In so doing you are proving I was right.

Secretary HULL. I was not questioning about that so much as I have tried to illustrate that notwithstanding all we can do to act together as a team it is just not possible to satisfy everybody.

Mrs. ROGERS. But you will come before this committee and give us information?