General JOHNSON. One hung on for about a year, because he was not in accord with the policy of giving away airplanes, but I do not know where he is now; he is not in the war, though.

Mrs. ROGERS. Secretary of War Woodring resigned, and during President Wilson's administration the Secretary of War, Mr. Garrison, resigned?

The CHAIRMAN. General Johnson, the Chair objects to that question, for the reason that it is not relevant, so you need not answer it. Mrs. ROGERS. Mr. Chairman, I brought that out because I think it is quite important, since the question was asked of Colonel Lindbergh.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us proceed.

Mrs. ROGERS. He was asked if the President would not always follow the advice of the Secretary of War and the Secretary of the Navy, so it seems to me it is relevant.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has ruled. Proceed, Mrs. Rogers, in order.

Mrs. ROGERS. General Johnson, you consider the air arm most essential to the defense of the United States, do you not?

General JOHNSON. I consider it one of three essentials.

Mrs. ROGERS. Do you think the United States should supply any government with airplanes before the Air Corps of the United States is strong enough to protect this country and carry out our duties in the Western Hemisphere?

General JOHNSON. That is a highly technical question. I can conceive of some transfers of aircraft that would be to our advantage, many that would not. I am very fearful of our not building up our present air force quicker than we are, fearful of the appropriation of aircraft that is apparently being diverted. I know that we have tank companies that have no tanks of the modern design, and cannot be instructed. I know we have got a lot of boys in uniform for a year's training in this new motorized, mechanized warfare, and there is no equipment to train them with even, and a lot of things like that; but I would not proceed to condemn that cavalierly, because there are so many questions related to all those decisions to which nobody but the responsible officers of the Army and the Navy could really give a final answer; and while that situation sort of smells, to me, I cannot say whether it is right or not in each particular case.

Mrs. ROGERS. But you feel that we are here all the time and can act as a check on possible legislation?

General JOHNSON. I think you ought. I think Congress did in the World War and in the Civil War, and we won both of them, finally, and I do not know what Congress was ever far behind the Executive. In the World War I know Congress was ahead of the President. We would never have had the Conscription Act if it had not been for the House Military Committee.

Mrs. ROGERS. It seems to me, General Johnson, Congress followed along very well in the World War, and was very cooperative.

General JOHNSON. Yes; but it maintained distinct control. We furnished all kinds of aid to Britain and France, but it was all under specific appropriations by Congress, and authorization to do so.

Mrs. ROGERS. Exactly. Do you approve of the British Defense Commission appearing before us, just as they did before the Ways and Means Committee during the World War?

Mr. JOHNSON. Objection.

The CHAIRMAN. The objection is sustained. Proceed.

Mrs. ROGERS. General Johnson, I agree with you it is very important to us to have Great Britain remain strong, and therefore not be defeated, but was not the reason that England did not help Finland because she was not strong herself? And she did not help France. because she was weak?

General JOHNSON. Of course, that happens to be a wholly new field of discussion.

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe I will object, in the interests of time. the CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

General JOHNSON. I do not object to answering it. I did not. The CHAIRMAN. I know, General, but the idea has nothing to do with the bill that we have under consideration.

Mrs. ROGERS. I would like to speak to that point. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has ruled.

Mrs. ROGERS. It seems to me it has a good deal to do with it. It proves England was not strong, and it also proved we must be extremely careful not to aid Britain until we are strong enough, ourselves.

The CHAIRMAN. You may ask any question with reference to aid to Britain, but kindly refrain from asking questions not germane to the bill under consideration. Proceed, Mrs. Rogers.

Mrs. ROGERS. You stated, General Johnson, I think, or I understood you to use words to the effect that this bill would tie our destiny to those European war leaders whose destinies we are unable to control.

General JOHNSON. The more closely you entwine your fate with them, the more certainly you will have to follow them to the bitter end, no matter where it leads.

Mrs. ROGERS. If we should join the so-called Allies and if the fighting should go on for years and years, the countries would be prostrated, and then Russia would be the strong nation?

General JOHNSON. That is the apparent present tendency.

Mrs. ROGERS. Do you think it would be helpful to have England give us a quid pro quo for what we lend and lease?

General JOHNSON. To the extent that she has the resources to do so, I certainly do.

Mrs. ROGERS. Do you believe this country is organized to give this country adequate defense, planes in other words?

General JOHNSON. No, not yet; but I think everybody is trying as hard as he can to get that way; a little late, but

Mrs. ROGERS. General Johnson, I would like to ask your opinion of an amendment suggestion. The question is somewhat similar to an amendment that Congressman Dewey of Illinois has suggested. You know he was the former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, and in line with that, I am going to ask you this question. Since there is no provision in the bill, do you believe it would be wise to provide in the bill that some officer, say the Comptroller General, be charged with the duty of keeping an official record of all defense articles and property transferred by the United States to any government, together with any payment of any kind received by the United States from any government for such property?

General JOHNSON. Well, is there not a provision in the bill which requires that these gifts or leases or loans shall be reported to some official of the Government? I do not think it is the comptroller general.

Mrs. ROGERS. Yes; but I think the comptroller general would be perhaps better.

General JOHNSON. I had not given that any thought. I think, of course, a record should be kept, and that it should be available to Congress.

Mrs. ROGERS. Do you not think it would be wise to have written into this bill an amendment providing that assets be transferred to the United States for security of property the United States transfers to Great Britain, and also to make certain these assets do not fall into Nazi control, such as the assets in South America?

General JOHNSON. I think that all of the reasonable collateral that could be asked of Great Britain should be asked. Now then, when you get to assets in South America and various things like that, as to transferring them in exchange for defense articles, I have not given it a great deal of thought, but I do not think I would favor that. I would favor a collateralization of every value that we give or lend, not assets advanced against Great Britain, for the reason that you mention, that if this thing goes to pot, we would still have the pieces, not somebody else.

Mrs. ROGERS. Exactly. I would like to ask a great many more questions, General Johnson, but I am not going to. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Pfeifer.

Mr. PFEIFER. You are for all aid to Britain short of war?

General JOHNSON. I have not said that.

Mr. PFEIFER. You are for all aid to Britain, short of war?

General JOHNSON. I have not used those words. I have tried to

state what I am for.

Mr. PFEIFER. You are for aid to Britain?

The CHAIRMAN. Ask him.

Mr. PFEIFER. Are you for aid to Britain?

General JOHNSON. I have stated it over and over again, sir.

Mr. PFEIFER. You have stated yes, provided it aids the defense of the United States; is that right?

General JOHNSON. That is correct.

Mr. PFEIFER. And then you stated in your testimony that you favored the transference of those ships, those destroyers, except the method used, is that right?

General JOHNSON. I said that; yes.

Mr. PFEIFER. Do you favor the transfer of bombing planes to Great Britain?

General JOHNSON. What bombing planes are you speaking about, now?

Mr. PFEIFER. That are being transferred to Great Britain.

General JOHNSON. I am not quite sure of my facts, but I believe that the bombing planes that are going to Britain now are planes that were on order in our factories, as to which we stepped aside with our orders, to let those orders be replaced by British orders-which I think was entirely proper, if that is the case, without any authorization.

Mr. PFEIFER. You favor the transference of those planes that have been used by our Army for a certain period, do you not?

General JOHNSON. Not any blanket authorization for them, although I can see cases like those of the old tanks we had out at Fort Lee, which were of no use to us, at all, why that should be permitted if they were obsolete and add nothing to the defenses of the United States. I would be in favor of it; yes.

Mr. PFEIFER. Are you aware of the fact that several bombing planes with modern equipment used by our Army were transferred to Great Britain?

General JOHNSON. I am not.

Mr. PFEIFER. Well, if you were, would you be in favor of that? General JOHNSON. That is what the President calls an "iffy" question. I do not think I can give an opinion on that situation that I do not know anything about. Now, in that case, I do feel after reading the Attorney General's opinion on the destroyers, that if first-line bombers belonging to the Army were transferred to Britain without any authority from Congress in violation of the law, I would not be in favor of it-if that is the case.

Mr. PFEIFER. What do you mean, General, by "all aid to Britain"? In what way would you help Britain outside of loans and money or credit?

General JOHNSON. At the present time I would restrict it to furnishing her money, if she hasn't got it herself.

Mr. PFEIFER. Then it is only money?

General JOHNSON. That is correct, at the present time.

Mr. PFEIFER. So far as you are concerned, in helping England? General JOHNSON. That is right.

Mr. PFEIFER. No other way?

General JOHNSON. I have stated over and over again that as for obsolete material that we do not need I have no objection to that. Mr. PFEIFER. Well, for instance there was a battleship in use today, and the President calls it obsolete, and the Navy head says it is obsolete: would you be opposed to its being transferred to Great Britain?

General JOHNSON. Somebody has got to say whether it is obsolete, if it is obsolete and of no use to our defense. It it is not obsolete and is of use to our defense-no. But when it comes to the question of obsolescense or the degree of obsolescence some authority has to decide it, and I believe that the authorities to decide it under our form of government are perhaps the chief of operations and the Secretary of the Navy. If they decided it and said it was obsolete, I could not be in any position, and I know of no other private citizen, anyone who would be in any position to say, "Oh, no, it isn't-I know better than you do!"

Mr. PFEIFER. Is it not a fact that the Navy today is taking ships that have been termed obsolete and converting them into modern ships?

General JOHNSON. They were doing that to the destroyers. I do not think they had completed it. But whether or not you can take a ship and make it the equivalent of a first-line ship and convert it, I do not know, but I will say this, that if it has been converted to a point where it is no longer obsolete, then my definition would hold, and, it being not obsolete, I would be opposed to giving it away, to weaken our defense.

Mr. PFEIFER. Would you object to our Government giving away commerce ships or troop ships?

General JOHNSON. I would object to giving away anything just I would aid in purchase and sale but I can

now.

Mr. PFEIFER. Would you favor, then the sale of those ships through loans by this Government to Great Britain? General JOHNSON. Commercial ships?

Mr. PFEIFER. Commercial ships.

General JOHNSON. Why, I see no objection whatever to doing that. We have done that to several nations.

Mr. PFEIFER. Troop ships?

General JOHNSON. Well, troop ships. That is just a merchant liner. Mr. PFEIFER. Were they convertible, to carry troops?

General JOHNSON. Put a few hammocks and bunks in them, that is all.

Mr. PFEIFER. Then you do favor the transfer of armed vessels to belligerent nations?

General JOHNSON. I did not say that. I did not say anything remotely resembling that.

Mr. PFEIFER. How far would you go, insofar as the use of money is concerned, given to England in the form of a loan?

General JOHNSON. If I had given them the money, it would not be any more of our business. I think that the restriction should be

that it be spent in this country; but, further than that-no.

Mr. PFEIFER. Would you then permit Great Britain to buy all the planes she was able to buy, at our expense, insofar as defense of this Nation is concerned?

General JOHNSON. Well, I have stated over and over again my position. Now, as to the particular point you are driving at, that is a question of priority, which will be decided by, I presume, the Priority Commission of the Office of Purchase Management in the President's office. As to what priority shall be granted to us or to other nations, that is the way we did in the World War. I have no doubt that is the way it will be done here, and the question of priority, if properly decided, on my theory, will be decided solely on that question, Does that ship go better for the defense of the United States by selling it or by adding it to our force?

Mr. PFEIFER. Would that same understanding hold true for other nations at war, General Johnson, the loans of money for similar transactions?

General JOHNSON. In a similar situation; that is, a situation in which I felt that the loan and the aid given were necessary to American defense and for nothing else on earth. Yes; it would go, but I know of no such situation at present.

Mr. PFEIFER. In what way do you believe that the granting of this power on the part of the President in the form of loans for the securing of the material that you believe will help to defend the United Stateshow can England help defend the United States?

General JOHNSON. Only to the extent that the Atlantic lanes are not laid wide open to whatever naval and air power the Germans may have.

Mr. PFEIFER. Do you believe, then, that we are open for attack, and this country can be successfully invaded?

General JOHNSON. No; I do not.

Mr. PFEIFER. Then how can England aid in the defense of the United States?

General JOHNSON. Because war is a moving thing. It is not the same thing 2 days in succession; and while I do not believe we are now defenseless, and while I do not believe if we get into our full stride in preparing to defend ourselves we ever will be, I do think if we rest on our oars and do not perfect our defense and make our country