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Mr. TINKHAM. You decline to answer whether the PresidentThe CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Tinkham, the Secretary did answer that question and he has answered it several times. Mr. TINKHAM. Well, it does not seem to me so. to the chairman

The CHAIRMAN. It seems so to every one here.

Mr. TINKHAM. I shall have to be satisfied.

But if it seems so

The CHAIRMAN. The Secretary has answered that fully and has done so several times.

Mr. TINKHAM. Evasively, in my opinion.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, he has answered that anyway.
Secretary HULL. I appreciate that compliment.

Mr. TINKHAM. I hope it is a compliment. And it is not a compliment.

Secretary HULL. It is a compliment in any conversation between you and me.

Mr. TINKHAM. I have this statement to read and I would like you to comment on it if you will.

Speaking of the bill in effect

Mr. JOHNSON (interposing). Mr. Chairman, in the interest of time and orderly procedure, I think it would be better if the distinguished gentleman from Massachusetts would ask questions rather than read what somebody else has said about something. It is so long in the first place. In the second place, the gentleman's own scintillating mind is sufficient to enable him to frame whatever questions he desires to ask.

Mr. TINKHAM. This does it so much better than I could ask the question. I would like to read a short statement and then ask a question on it.

Mr. JOHNSON. The gentleman is a very intelligent man.

Mr. TINKHAM. Oh, I repel that suggestion.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Tinkham, the Chair will request that before reading any further statement or newspaper article, kindly give the name of the paper and the date of any statement and who wrote it. Mr. TINKHAM. I would be very glad to. Of course, I do not know who writes editorials.

The CHAIRMAN. If it is an editorial you can say it is an editorial. Mr. TINKHAM. This comes from the Washington Post dated January 11. The name of the author is here, a Mark Sullivan. He states, and I desire to ask the Secretary of State to make any comment he wishes upon this-he states, in relation to the bill and its provisions:

In effect, the direction of the war will be divided between the military and naval high command in Britain and the economic high command who will be the President of the United States. As the military and naval general headquarters will be London, the economic general headquarters will be the United States. To suppose that the economic high command and the general headquarters is not in the war is a supposition which the Axis Powers will hardly share.

Do you have any comment, Mr. Secretary, upon that statement? Secretary HULL. I do not know the context of it. You are taking something out of an entire article by Mr. Mark Sullivan.

Mr. TINKHAM. Let me state that it is a complete part in itself. Secretary HULL. Will you be kind enough to read the entire article? You have the editorial, and I cannot undertake to comment upon such an excerpt of it.

Mr. JOHNSON. I want to renew the objection I made a moment ago about reading the short statement.

Secretary HULL. Will you be kind enough to read the entire article? Mr. JOHNSON. The objection I made a moment ago about reading short statements by the gentleman demonstrates, I think, the wisdom of my grounds upon which I made the objection. You can take innumerable articles; there has been a great deal of matter written about this and it is not a matter of interest here. It is a matter of determining the views of the witness. And the gentleman can ask any specific questions that he wishes. But all these articles contain a number of questions that some may believe in and some may not. I want to make a point of order and I want a ruling on it that members of the committee be not permitted to read long articles.

Mr. TINKHAM. They are not long articles. They are very short articles.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will state that unless the gentleman has the complete article or editorial and will read the complete article it will be ruled out of order.

Mr. TINKHAM. Oh, it would take so much time to read the whole editorial.

The CHAIRMAN. It is not a question of time. You gentlemen were complaining when I said we could finish these hearings in 3 days. You wanted to conserve time. What we are anxious to do is to have it right. The Secretary wants to hear the full article before he comments upon it or answers questions upon it.

Mr. TINKHAM. Let me say in reply that the whole article would perhaps cover many points and that the whole article would be long to read.

Secretary HULL. That is why I want to hear it.

Mr. TINKHAM. And what I want is an answer to specific paragraphs that raise specific questions and which are clear and isolated so far as their intellectual content is concerned.

Secretary HULL. I want to be the judge of that myself.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has already ruled, Mr. Tinkham. Kindly proceed in order.

Mr. TINKHAM. May I ask you this question, whether the bill would make the United States, in your opinion, a nonbelligerent ally of Britain in all but name?

Secretary HULL. As I said many times here this morning, the attitude of this Government is one of defending itself primarily by aiding another country already attacked to defend itself.

Mr. TINKHAM. You are not willing to discuss

Secretary HULL (interposing). That is the whole question that is presented.

Mr. TINKHAM (continuing). Whether it is a nonbelligerent ally in all but name?

Secretary HULL. I do not know how I could. I have not heard the term "nonbelligerent ally" mentioned except by some persons during recent months and I think they gave different interpretations to that term. I do not know what it is. It is something new. I mean by that, I do not know how everyone interprets it and I do not care to go into that phase any further than I have said, which I think is complete

as an answer.

Mr. TINKHAM. May I ask you, with your knowledge of the laws, whether it does not devolve upon the President more and greater powers than have ever been devolved upon a President except in the World War and possibly in excess of those powers granted in the World War?

Secretary HULL. Oh, when you go back even to the Civil War you will find there were some people talking just as you are now. Mr. TINKHAM. Well, perhaps they were right.

Secretary HULL. Perhaps they were wrong.

Mr. TINKHAM. Events can only determine that fact, as you well know.

May I ask you if this bill does not give the President full powers and authority back of those powers to act in relation to fixing the foreign policy of the United States in any part of the world?

Secretary HULL. The President under the Constitution is entrusted with the responsibility of conducting our foreign relations with other countries.

Mr. TINKHAM. Yes; but this legislation attempts to avoid the necessity of having the President come to the Congress and receive the required approval of the representatives of the people in many instances. I know the President has the right to make what commitments he can up to what he may wish regarding a treaty, and then he must submit it to the Senate and the representatives of the people to act. And here do you not think that he is given the right to enter what amounts to military alliances without any Senate action? And he is also given here the power to implement, which is more important still, those policies which otherwise he would not have without the legislation?

Secretary HULL. I think I have often said to many persons that the Government is not a party to any secret treaty or understanding or alliance of any kind. This is and has been its fixed policy known to every person who cares to know. And I have little doubt that this will continue to be its policy.

Mr. TINKHAM. Have you ever had drawn to your attention, speaking of that, the statement of Winston Churchill on March 8, 1938, in which he made a statement that the British Navy, with an understanding with the United States if war should come, would be greater and stronger than it was in 1914?

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman

Secretary HULL (interposing). Oh, that is merely a general expression. It does not purport to contain any understanding or any agreement of any kind.

Mr. TINKHAM. You do not think he was justified in making that statement?

Secretary HULL. Why, of course, he was not, if it implied any kind of agreement.

Mr. TINKHAM. Well, his language certainly did. It was explicit. Secretary HULL. Any time those things get to bothering you, if you will just drop in my office I could give you relief very soon.

Mr. TINKHAM. I thank you for your invitation, but I should think I was coming, if I accepted, into a hostile office.

Secretary HULL. I would feel that I was welcoming a long-lost and erring friend.

Mr. TINKHAM. To speak on the personal side; certainly not on the international policy side.

Now, I want to know, Mr. Secretary, whether under the terms of this bill, and you have read it, of course, the President can give away any part of the United States Navy?

Secretary HULL. Oh, that is such a violent assumption I am surprised that even you would want to take up time to discuss it.

Mr. TINKHAM. It seems to me it is implicit. I do not want to read the bill, but it seems to me it is quite implicit in the language as drawn. I could read the bill. Is the bill here?

Secretary HULL. I say, it is such a violent assumption that anybody would try to give away a dreadnought.

Mr. TINKHAM. Mr. Secretary, we are in days when the most violent assumptions are liable to be the correct assumptions.

Let me draw your attention to section 3 of part 2 of the bill, which gives the President the right to sell, transfer, exchange, lease, rent, or otherwise dispose to any such government any defense article. Does not that give him the right, so far as the language is concerned, to transfer naval vessels?

Secretary HULL. I did not take issue about that phase. I said that was so violent an assumption. It is out of reason to imagine any President officially or individually would think of giving away a dreadnought. I would like to say that this is a simple, frank formula for giving the maximum amount of aid, military aid, to Britain in the way of supplies.

Mr. TINKHAM. Oh, but it is in the language of the bill.

Secretary HULL. I have not heard the critics offer any definite substitute plan. Now, as to amendments, naturally amendments are always offered and discussed, but I have not heard any such proposal offered by the critics who have your shade of opinion on this general subject of foreign relations.

Mr. TINKHAM. Do I understand that the Secretary has no objection as long as the point has been raised to putting in a clause which forbids the transfer of naval vessels?

Secretary HULL. I am going to leave that to the Army and Navy and the collaboration of those who will be in charge of this bill and who are desirous of securing legislation for this purpose. I am sure they will develop the matter in a manner satisfactory to themselves if they do not to others.

Mr. TINKHAM. May I say that a transfer of naval vessels would be of such international import and policy import that you should certainly have an opinion on it?

Secretary HULL. Well, if you take the naval vessels, you would include a little vessel worth probably $500. It would include a large list of mosquito type of naval craft. And you are asking me to generalize from a dreadnought, for example, to every kind and type of naval craft no matter how minor and how insignificant. Of course, I am going to leave that matter to the practical judgment of those who are here in both Houses of Congress and in the War and Navy Departments and in the White House who are desirous, seriously desirous, of working out a practical answer to those questions.

Mr. TINKHAM. Well, it seems to me that you as the chief

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman, I object to the gentleman from Massachusetts referring to that. The Secretary has answered the question.

Mr. TINKHAM. He has not answered.

Mr. JOHNSON. Not satisfactorily possibly to the gentleman, but he has answered it.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair sustains the point of order, Mr. Tinkham, and you will kindly proceed in order. I may say for the benefit of the committee, it is getting rather late and the Secretary has been on the witness stand for a long time, and we are going to adjourn in a few minutes.

Mr. TINKHAM. If the Secretary will come back I have a number of questions I want to ask him which I think I am entitled to ask him. The CHAIRMAN. You certainly are entitled to ask questions, Mr. Tinkham. We do not want to foreclose you of your right to ask questions.

Mr. TINKHAM. No; but have the Secretary come back.

The CHAIRMAN. It all depends on the Secretary's engagements.

Mr. TINKHAM. If he will come back some time, I do not care when, as long as I am given the right to ask questions and have them answered or denied.

The CHAIRMAN. Please go ahead and ask them and we will see if we cannot get through this morning, but do not repeat the same question so often.

Mr. TINKHAM. Mr. Secretary, the President and you have taken numerous actions, certainly not in conformity with the principles of neutrality. Does not this bill, if it is passed, practically, and to all intents and purposes, approve of those acts and allow them and further acts within the four corners of the bill to be perpetrated?

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman, I object. The gentleman has already answered the question what effect this bill would have on neutrality and this is simply a repetition and another form of the same question.

Mr. TINKHAM. I am sorry that my mind does not run exactly in the groove of the honorable representative from Texas. But it seems there are various phases of this very important and delicate question that can be put in different language. And I want to use that language.

Mr. JOHNSON. The point I am making is that the gentleman asked the question a moment ago and he is simply asking it in another form. Does not that sustain the supposition that he has been asking and that the question has been answered? The gentleman has certainly had very full opportunity.

Mr. TINKHAM. Will you state if you are familiar with the Alabama International Decisions?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Tinkham, what has that got to do with the bill under consideration?

Mr. JOHNSON. It is immaterial.

Mr. TINKHAM. That was the outfitting of ships.

Mr. FISH. I think that is one of the most important questions to be asked. Mr. Tinkham has not finished his question. Let him finish and then the Secretary can answer.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's have him finish the question then and see if the Secretary wants to answer it.

Mr. TINKHAM. You are familiar with the Alabama International Adjudications?

Secretary HULL. I beg your pardon?

Mr. TINKHAM. Are you familiar with the Alabama International Adjudications?

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