Mr. GRANT. I will get something in the record on that.

(The information requested follows:)

The extra costs to the Department of Agriculture of using U.S. vessels under the several Public Law 480 programs are:

1 Shipments of nonagricultural materials on U.S. vessels under barter contracts.

The U.S. Government received from the recipient country foreign currencies equivalent to $343,900,000 over this same period of years, representing the estimated foreign-flag vessel rate. Some of these currencies have been available for payment of U.S. expenses abroad.

* Reflects costs for ocean transportation on U.S.-flag vessels in excess of foreign-flag vessel rates.

Mr. ADDABBO. This $441 million, is this in addition to the money that the Government is paying out for subsidies to the farmers? Is this additional money to be paid out?

Mr. GRANT. These do not include payments to farmers. These are the costs involved in providing the commodities for shipment abroad under title I. The exporter may purchase the commodity in the open market, in which case we reimburse him. If it involves shipping from CCC inventory, then this includes a payment to the Corporation, which will be picked up as a receipt by the Corporation and reduces expenditures there. To that extent it has no effect.

Mr. ADDABBO. Could there be a commodity that the Government has paid double subsidy on-in other words, that one subsidy the Government has paid to the farmer for keeping it out of production or due to overproduction, and another subsidy paid to the exporter out of this $441 million?

Mr. GRANT. No, sir; there would not be anything of that nature. Actually, this could be a commodity on which the Corporation made a loan to a farmer, let's say in wheat, and therefore there were some costs incurred by the Corporation. If that same wheat were shipped under Title I: Public Law 480, there would not be any duplicate payments of any kind.

Mr. ADDABBO. In other words, the dollars are going to the farmer under one program or to the exporter under this title.

Mr. GRANT. To the exporter or shipping company.

Mr. ADDABBо. Thank you very much.

No further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. WHITTEN. Mr. Horan?

30-080-64-pt. 1--20

CARRYOVER OF FUNDS FROM PREVIOUS APPROPRIATIONS

Mr. HORAN. You have quite a number of funds down there that remain available beyond 1 year, don't you, Mr. Grant?

Mr. GRANT. Yes; a number of the funds are carried over from one year to the next; yes, sir.

Mr. HORAN. Watershed protection, flood prevention?

Mr. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. HORAN. Great Plains, resource conservation and development, sugar act, conservation reserve, cropland conversion, rural electrification loan fund, and rural telephone loan fund which I believe you are revising in this present budget.

Mr. GRANT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HORAN. Farmers Home Administration, direct loans, rural renewal, rural housing for the elderly, and Public Law 480, International Wheat Agreement, and bartered materials. For the record, how much did you obligate through June 30, 1963?

Mr. GRANT. You want the obligations for each individual item? Mr. HORAN. No, no; the total.

Mr. GRANT. I would have to compute that. For the Commodity Credit Corporation, for example, it would be necessary to determine the obligated portion of the unexpended balance.

Mr. HORAN. Supply that for the record; can you do that?

Mr. GRANT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HORAN. Whichever way you wish, in lump sum or

Mr. GRANT. I would have to do it by individual items, because we have so many different kinds of funds.

Mr. HORAN. That will be all right.

What was your final unobligated balance?

Mr. GRANT. At the end of 1963, the unobligated balance was $1,232 million.

Mr. HORAN. How much of that carried over into fiscal 1964?
Mr. GRANT. $990 million.

(The following table was submitted later.)

Status of appropriation as of June 30, 1963-Continued

1 Net obligations excluding obligations under trust funds and allotments from other agencies.

2 Reflects net of obligations of $33,283,000 and receipts of $34,883,000 for all working capital fund accounts of the Department.

Mr. HORAN. What unobligated balances did you expect to carry forward in fiscal year 1965?

Mr. GRANT. At the start of 1965, the unobligated balance is estimated at about $771 million.

Mr. HORAN. Of the so-called foreign assistance appropriations, how much of the funds that you are asking for in the budget before us for 1965 are going to pay for previous year's activities?

Mr. GRANT. The amount being requested in the 1965 estimates for unreimbursed 1964 program costs is $703 million. There was however, a carryover of $10 million under title IV of Public Law 480. The 1965 budget is on the basis of picking up the unreimbursed costs plus meeting the 1965 estimated costs.

Mr. Horan. Then of the total for foreign assistance of $2,366,838,000, some of that will not be reimbursed?

Mr. GRANT. That will not be reimbursed?

Mr. HORAN. Through the request in the 1964 budget before us.

Mr. GRANT. The estimate of $2.366 billion represents the estimated program costs in 1965 of $1.673 billion, plus $703 million of the unreimbursed costs of 1964, offset in part by the $10 million carryover under title IV.

So the appropriation estimate would provide the total amount as we now see it for Public Law 480, and other foreign assistance items.

USDA EXPENDITURES

Mr. HORAN. How much did you expend through June 30, 1963? Mr. GRANT. For the foreign assistance programs?

Mr. HORAN. No. For the Department.

Mr. GRANT. Total expenditures in 1963 were $7.735 billion.
Mr. HORAN. What was your final unexpended balance?

Mr. GRANT. The unexpended balance at the end of 1963 is $4.621 billion. That includes the unused portion of the Commodity Credit Corporation's borrowing authority.

Mr. HORAN. And for 1964?

Mr. GRANT. That is $4.753 billion.

Mr. HORAN. What are your expenditure estimates for fiscal year 1964 and 1965?

Mr. GRANT. For 1964 our expenditure estimate is $6.977 billion; for 1965, $5.815 billion.

DEPARTMENTAL EMPLOYMENT

Mr. HORAN. What was your actual employment as of June 30, 1963, permanent and other?

Mr. GRANT. Under all funds, 1963 employment in permanent positions, 78,853; other types of employment, 33,635; total, 112,488. This did not include, however, employment under the accelerated public works funds of 3,291, which made a total of all employees of 115,779. Mr. HORAN. What do you estimate for June 30, 1964?

Mr. GRANT. That is 116,800.

Mr. HORAN. And June 30, 1965?

Mr. GRANT. That is 115,376.

Mr. HORAN. How do these tie in with the end-of-year employment targets under the President's directive?

Mr. GRANT. They are the target figures.

I would say this, that the President has requested a further review and as a result there may be further reductions.

Mr. HORAN. You are not ready at this time to tell us the steps you have taken to reduce the number of personnel?

Mr. GRANT. Beyond these, no, sir. Not at this time.

Mr. HORAN. You will be at the end of the week, or before these hearings are over?

Mr. GRANT. Yes, sir; before the hearings are over.

Mr. HORAN. You can answer it when you get around to it. You will be here when we mop up.

Mr. MICHEL. Did your figures in response to Mr. Horan's questions for the years 1964 and 1965 include permanent, other, and accelerated public works people, too?