Senator BELLMON. You are requesting $15.5 million, which is about 5 percent of what you really need. I can't see that you are going to get much good out of such a small sum of money when the problem is so large.

Mr. CLAWSON. I can't dispute that statement. I say ideally it would be nice if we could have the whole amount. But understanding that we can't and that we cannot request that, we are trying to identify portions that we can use and use effectively. That is the purpose of this request.

LOCATION OF AGENTS

Senator BELLMON. These 500 special agents would work in 11 metropolitan areas?

Mr. CLAWSON. That is correct.

Senator BELLMON. Primarily to trace the source of where the firearms are coming from?

Mr. CLAWSON. No. It is much broader than that.

VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF CUE

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Chairman, that would actually be only one of the techniques that would be used in Operation ČUE. I have sort of a visual representation which I think has been supplied to you which tries to describe it.

Senator BELLMON. Without objection, that will be made a part of the record.

[The information follows:]

METHODOLOGY

Mr. DAVIS. But essentially the four basic approaches that would be used, one would be to trace weapons that are used in crime in the streets, in those metropolitan areas.

From this, we would find out the kinds of guns that are being used, where they are coming from, and of course once we have identified the source, then we would move to eliminate that source which would be the second approach.

This would be true whether that source was another state far removed or wherever it might be, or whether it was a dealer in the local area. Then we would use the established enforcement techniques of undercover work and surveillance.

We would identify significant criminals in that metropolitan area who use guns or explosives in their operations and concentrate on those.

Then, finally, of course, we would step up our compliance program in that area to insure that the licensed firearms dealers, were complying with the Federal law and that felons and other prohibited persons were not acquiring guns.

So it really would be a four-pronged approach.

EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS

Senator BELLMON. The grades of agents that you propose to use in this supplemental seem to be high. Do you plan to hire experienced personnel from other Federal agencies? Is that what you have in mind?

Mr. DAVIS. Sir, I think probably the grade level was established in anticipation that there might be requests from personnel of other agencies for employment in the Bureau. But we certainly do not intend to actively try to recruit personnel from other law enforcement agencies.

Mr. CLAWSON. It was also our thinking that in the current job market situation with the high unemployment across the country that there are going to be many qualified people of a higher level who would be seeking employment.

That has been our experience with the announcement of this. There are any number of people who are writing in, who are experienced agents.

Senator BELLMON. Do you feel you need experienced agents to do this kind of work?

Mr. CLAWSON. Yes; I think it is very helpful.

Mr. DAVIS. Very much so. Actually, of course, none of our agents are specialized in the sense that they would do any one particular facet of this work.

We would expect all of our agents to be capable of doing all of the types of work that are involved here, such as undercover work, surveillance, interviewing and interrogation of witnesses and defendants.

Senator BELLMON. Of these 500 agents, how many do you feel would be experienced and how many will be entry-level people?

Mr. DAVIS. Of course that would be very difficult to gauge. But again, it would depend on how many people from other agencies

express an interest for employment within ATF and how many of them meet our qualifications. So it would be highly speculative, but certainly I would think no more than 20 percent, but probably less than that.

Mr. CLAWSON. It is less than that. The figures were developed on the basis of about 150 agents at the GS-11, at a higher level; about 350 at the GS-9.

TRAINING

Senator BELLMON. Are all of these agents going to go through the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, or do you feel like you can hire agents with sufficient experience to go directly into the field?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. We would expect certainly all new recruits to not only go through the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, but also through our basic agent school itself.

We would expect anybody that transferred to us, if they had, for example, already been through the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, we would insist that they at least go through our basic school.

So all of them in effect would be trained before they would be permitted to go on the job.

Senator BELLMON. The $15,000,000 request would be all the money you will have for this program?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. That would be all that would be devoted to this program.

TRANSFERS

Senator BELLMON. Are you going to be transferring some of your other experienced ATF special agents into Operation CUE?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. We would. We realize, for example, that it would not be practical to recruit untrained agents and expect them to go into Operation CUE.

So that nationwide we would expect to transfer about 202 experienced ATF agents into Operation CUE cities and, of course, they would be backed up in many or most cases by recruits filling in behind them where they were transferred from.

Senator BELLMON. Do you have any figures as to how many of these ATF special agents would be transferred in fiscal 1976?

Mr. DAVIS. One hundred and eighty I think is the figure we have that would be transferred in fiscal year 1976.

Senator BELLMON. These will be backed up with trainees in the ATF?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. As we recruit new agents we would replace those in many parts of the country, not all. Some posts of duty that we would transfer experienced agents from, we feel, no longer serve a useful purpose.

So they would not be reactivated. But in many cases, there would be recruits that fill in behind the experienced agent.

Senator BELLMON. What you are saying is you are going to take agents out of little towns and bring them to Washington and New York City?

Mr. DAVIS. Sir, in some cases they would be from small cities, but in other cases they would come from the other metropolitan

areas.

Senator BELLMON. I am not sure I agree with that policy. What you are inviting is having the criminals go out in the country where we are getting along pretty well now and bringing your special agents into the city where there is probably not much they can do anyway.

ATF RESPONSIBILITY

Mr. Davis. Let me say we have nationwide responsibility that every geographic area in the United States is within the responsibility of an ATF agent. In other words, there is no geographical area that is not under the jurisdiction of an ATF post of duty with the agents.

The smaller posts of duty by and large that we are anticipating closing this is not necessarily the result of Operation CUE—are primarily in the South.

Some of these posts of duty were established many years ago to combat illicit liquor. The illicit liquor problem has been diminishing steadily over the years until now. It is at a stage where we feel that we can reassign or reallocate this manpower.

To give you a quick example, in the State of Georgia, for example, we have 94 special agents assigned. In the State of Wisconsin, which has roughly the same population, we have 12 agents assigned in our planning. This has been going on for two or three years now. The reallocation of people out of the southern area would call for transfer of 24 experienced agents out of the State of Georgia to be used in Operation CUE cities.

So this is a reallocation process that has been going on for some time and has been accelerating because of Operation CUE.

REDUCTION IN ILLICIT LIQUOR PROBLEM

We could take some credit for the elimination or the very drastic reduction of the illicit liquor problem. To give you just a quick comparison, in 1959 ATF seized over 15,000 illicit distilleries.

In the past fiscal year, I believe it was 600 or it was less than 1,000 for the last fiscal year, explaining the case reduction in the problem.

Senator BEllmon. But your agents do more than look for moonshiners?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. Obviously, the agents in the South are actively occupied in firearms and explosives. It is merely the fact that we have, of course, a limited number of agents. We have to try to place them in those locations where we feel they would be most effective in carrying out our responsibilities.

Senator BELLMON. My interest in this whole subject is heightened by an experience we had in Tulsa. I am from Oklahoma. We had a small Drug Control Office which the agency felt wasn't needed because there wasn't much of a drug problem. They decided to take them out.

They waited until the drug problem got serious and then brought them back. Are you going to follow that kind of policy here? If there is not much crime in the South, you will pull the agents out