Mr. FOUNTAIN. Just 1 or 2 other questions here.

If I understand it, a plan was submitted to the Congress during the 1st session of the 81st Congress and also during the 2d session. The plan which was submitted during the 1st session made reference to the constitution of the Federal Security Agency as the Department of Welfare. The plan which was submitted during the 2d session was referred to as Reorganization Plan No. 27 of 1950 to create the Department of Health, Education, and Security.

As I understand it, the only extent to which that particular title has been changed is to substitute the word "welfare" in lieu of "security"; is that right?

Mr. FINAN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Now, in substance, is there any difference between the plan which is now being submitted and the plan which was submitted in the 2d session of the 81st Congress, substantially, other than a transfer of all of the functions of the Federal Security Agency to this new Department of Health, Education, and Welfare and making provisions for a different method of appointment and giving the Secretary a little more discretion and authority in being able to delegate to his respective assistants such authority as he wants to delegate rather than to specifically set forth those duties?

Mr. FINAN. Let me try to answer you this way, sir: This plan is basically very different from the 1949 planMr. FOUNTAIN. I am talking about

Mr. FINAN. But generally speaking-
Mr. FOUNTAIN. 1950.

Mr. FINAN. Very similar to the 1950 plan.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Very similar with exception to some minor details? Mr. FINAN. Well, whether the details are minor or not, I think you might say is a matter of opinion. I am not prepared to say whether they are or not.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. May I ask this question: I understand quite a bit was said during the discussion of this bill in the 81st Congress about the possibilities of it being used as a means of carrying us further toward socialized medicine. Will you tell the committee in what way the present plan prevents that possibility any more than the plan which was last submitted to Congress?

Mr. DODGE. I couldn't get the question.

Senator SMITH of Maine. Will you repeat the question, please? May I suggest we keep the questions as direct as we can. There is a little difficulty in hearing, and there are a good many wanting to ask the questions. If we can get a direct question and a complete answer, it would be very helpful.

Did you get that question?

Mr. FINAN. I am not sure I clearly understood it.

Senator SMITH of Maine. Will the stenotypist please read the question?

Mr. FOUNTAIN. I will be glad to repeat the question and perhaps rephrase it and put it in more brief form.

Senator SMITH of Maine. Will yo do that, Congressman?

Mr. FOUNTAIN. I think all of us know from our previous experience with the reorganization plan quite a bit of contention was made during the 81st Congress, some of it having been made by Mr. Hoffman,

the present chairman of the Government Operations Committee of the House, that that plan might well lead further toward socialized medicine. I would like to ask this question: What is there in the present plan to provide safeguards against that possibility any more than were provided in the plan which was last submitted by President Truman?

Mr. FINAN. I'm afraid the only way I can answer that question is by pointing out, under the Reorganization Act, it is impossible to create functions; and in order, I would assume, to move in the direction of socialized medicine it would be necessary to alter the Federal programs in that field, which you cannot do by using a reorganization plan.

Senator DIRKSEN. Of course, Mr. Finan, the best answer is we have a new Administrator today in the Federal Security. I think I can say I believe there was a general concern about the viewpoint and the attitude of Mr. Ewing. I think the chairman and the people of the country sohuld know now that is our first safeguard, of courseMr. KARSTEN. Is this a government of laws or a government of men?

Senator DIRKSEN. And the second safeguard is, of course, it is a government of men.

Mr. KARSTEN. Mr. Chairman, is this an administration of a government of laws or a government of men?

Senator DIRKSEN. I think that observation is rather academic. I think we know what happened, and we know who is giving a push to socialized medicine. Now, we just as well be very candid about it.

Senator SMITH of Maine. The provision that the Secretary's assistant should be chosen from the medical people is another safeguard, is it not, Mr. Dodge?

Mr. DODGE. Yes; it provides that it should be a person with an established background.

Senator SMITH of Maine. And that is the purpose of that provision?
Mr. DODGE. That is one of the purposes of it.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Do I still have the floor, Madam Chairman?
Senator SMITH of Maine. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fountain.
Do you have another question?
Mr. FOUNTAIN. Yes; I do.

Then, as I understand your statement in answer to my last question, insofar as providing safeguards against the possibility of socialized medicine, there is no essential difference between this plan and the last plan submitted by President Truman?

Mr. DODGE. Well, there are several safeguards, I believe. One is in the Administrator of the Agency. Another is in the attitude of the administration.

And, second, we have provided in the reorganization plan a special assistant who, in a sense, reflects the medical background-and I believe they are not in favor of socialized medicine; and, besides that, we do not propose any substantive changes in functions which cannot be produced through a reorganization plan.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Well, Mr. Dodge, you are talking quite a bit about attitude and what the intent of the administration is, which is all well and good. We certainly hope that is true, and we believe it to be

true; but here is the point I am getting at: I am not trying to be partisan, but reference was made as to who was the originator of this plan. Substantially speaking, this plan was originated, was it not, by the previous administration?

Mr. DODGE. Well, my information is that similar plans have been on the fire for quite a long time. They have been before this Congress several times and have been denied.

This is a plan which cannot help but be similar to some of those that have been before you before this.

Mr. BROWN Of Ohio. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Yes.

Mr. BROWN of Ohio. If the gentleman will check the record, I think he will find the first suggestion made for the creation of a department such as this was in the Harding administration and that these suggestions have come up regularly ever since-that the same suggestion came from a committee that was named to check the affairs of Government some 25 years ago; then finally on through the years until the Hoover Commission, so-called, made its recommendation which was rather much in point, with 1 exception or 2, to this particular plan. Throughout the years, for 25 years or 30 years, there have been recommendations made by various administrations, both Democratic and Republican, to create a department such as this. So, in history you will find the background for this plan.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. That is true. I was well aware of that fact, but I do know that Mr. Truman, in 4 or 5 of his messages to Congress, repeatedly made a recommendation that this agency be given an executive status.

Mr. BROWN of Ohio. Yes; he based those upon the Commission recommendation.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you address the Chair

Mr. BROWN of Ohio. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Brown, please?

Mr. BROWN of Ohio. Certainly.

Senator SMITH of Maine. Has the Congressman completed his questions?

Mr. FOUNTAIN. I believe they are the only questions I have at this time.

Senator SMITH of Maine: We will come back to the Senate side. The chairman of the Senate Government Operations Committee is here. Senator McCarthy, do you have any questions?

Does the chairman of the full committee have any questions?
Senator McCARTHY. I have one.

May I say I must leave presently because we have investigating committee work over in the Senate, and I must go back there.

Mr. Dodge, I want to ask you one question. As I look over this plan, I think it is a good plan as far as it goes, and I think it goes as far as the President can go perhaps under the Reorganization Act. The thing that concerns me is this: I think a vast number of people think this will give Mrs. Hobby the power to completely reorganize and completely clean house. Now, many of us feel that the personnel left by Mr. Ewing leaves much to be desired. I think it should be very clear that Mrs. Hobby, under this Reorganization Act, does not have the power to really clear house.

That is also true, of course, of many other bureau heads.

I wonder if you or the new administration has given any thought yet to the type of legislation which would be required to give the heads of the various bureaus power to do the job which we expect them to do.

Mr. DODGE. Well, I might start out by saying that this plan itself would involve a transfer of the staff from the Federal Security Agency to the new department as it exists today, except for the offices that are specifically abolished under the plan and are substituted in large degree by new offices and new departmental officers created to take their place.

Senator MCCARTHY. Am I correct in this: This does not give Mrs. Hobby all the power which she will need if she wants to do a thorough job in her department? In other words, additional legislation is required which could not be included in this plan under the Reorganization Act?

Mr. DODGE. That is correct, Senator, because it cannot be given under the reorganization plan.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Chairman of the Senate committee, if you will yield right there

Senator MCCARTHY. Certainly.

The CHAIRMAN. In line with what you have in mind, in section 5 I note all agencies of the Federal Security Agency, together with their respective functions and personnel, are transferred to the new department. Then over in section 9 the present officers, you note, and assistant heads

Senator McCARTHY. What I have in mind

The CHAIRMAN. Those named in section 9-all stay in
Senator McCARTHY. Yes. What I——

The CHAIRMAN. For not more than 60 days.

Does the resolution that is offered here change that in any way or would they still hold office for 60 days? It is limited to 60 days. Section 9 states:

The President may authorize the persons who immediately prior to the time this reorganization plan takes effect occupy the offices of Federal Security Administrator, Assistant Federal Security Administrator, assistant heads of the Federal Security Agency, and Commissioner for Social Security to act as Secretary, Under Secretary, and Assistant Secretaries of Health, Education, and Welfare, and as Commissioner of Social Security, respectively, until those offices are filled by appointment in the manner provided by

Senator McCARTHY. Will the chairman

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator MCCARTHY. Apparently I didn't make myself clear. I am not speaking of the few top jobs Mrs. Hobby will have a right to fill

in the staff.

The CHAIRMAN. You are speaking of those under section 5?
Senator MCCARTHY. May I finish?

I am speaking of the sizable number, for example, of the legal staff. They have never taken a civil-service examination. They are saddled upon Mrs. Hobby at this time. I am speaking of all the debris which Oscar Ewing accumulated over a number of years. They are saddled upon Mrs. Hobby. She has no way of getting rid of them under the present civil-service regulations.

Now, I know the President could not take care of this in this act, but my question, Mr. Dodge, is this: Do you have something in mind

in the way of overall legislation which will untie the hands not only of Mrs. Hobby but the other department heads so they will have a right to really clean house in their departments?

Mr. DODGE. Well, it is a matter of great concern for everyone connected with the new administration. There has been considerable discussion about the matter, but no definitive proposals have been made. We believe it is a matter which should require the urgent attention of the Congress.

Senator MCCARTHY. In any event, you feel this plan should not be help up pending any such legislation?

Mr. DODGE. It would be-

Senator MCCARTHY. This is a step in the right direction?
Mr. DODGE. It would be impractical to do so.

Senator MCCARTHY. I want to say I must apologize to Mrs. Hobby. I must leave and go over to another hearing. I think this is a step in the right direction, and I will support it. I feel your hands are still badly tied, and I think we must introduce additional legislation to give the new bureau heads the power to do the job which we expect them to do.

I want to thank you, Madam Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Riehlman.

Mr. RIEHLMAN, Mr. Dodge, there have been several questions asked in respect to the plans that have been up before the Congress and the trend heretofore toward socialized medicine.

I think the greatest provision of this bill in that respect-and I would like your comment on it-deals with section 3, wherein you have set up a special assistant to the Secretary who will deal with health and medical affairs, and it specifically states this person shall be picked from the field with wide nongovernmental experience.

Now, wouldn't that lead us to believe that that certainly would be one of the greatest deterrents toward socialized medicine, if we could bring into the field of Government activities that type of person? I would like your comment on it.

Mr. DODGE. I certainly agree-and that is one of the purposes of it. Mr. RIEHLMAN. Now, I wonder if you could give me information as to what the difference in responsibility of the new commissioners will be under the new plan as compared to the present setup in the department.

Mr. FINAN. I am afraid we don't get that question, sir.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. You are going to have a new Secretary under this plan and you are also going to have your Special Assistant to the Secretary for Health and Medical Affairs, and then the ones dealing with welfare and education. Now, will their functions be any different than they have been in the past?

Mr. DODGE. No; there's no change in their functions. The Under Secretary provides the Administrator with a top departmental official to whom she can delegate more of the management responsibility than has been possible in the past.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Well, if that is true, is it the hope then of the administration, if that is properly carried out, we can expect greater efficiency and greater economy in the Department?

Mr. DODGE. As I said in my statement, speaking from both business experience and what I have seen in Government, it is usually the