Mr. HERSEY. I would suggest that Mr. Britt be requested to furnish the committee with data and facts and figures as to the taking out of permits and as to violation of permits, whether they are on the increase or decrease

Mr. BRITT. We can furnish the facts.

Mr. MONTAGUE. Those figures are available, are they not?

Mr. BRITT. Well, they are available in figures and findings and circumstance which could be set forth to that extent. Mr. Doran, am I correct in saying that some statement can be prepared to that effect?

Doctor DORAN. Yes.

Mr. FOSTER. Did you say that the manufacture of alcohol amounts to approximately 100,000,000 gallons a year?

Mr. BRITT. Yes; approximately.

Mr. FOSTER. Could you give us approximately what proportion of that 100,000,000 gallons

Doctor DORAN. Sixty million wine gallons.

Mr. BRITT. Say, 60,000,000 gallons.

Mr. FOSTER. Then of the 60,000,000 gallons of alcohol manufactured a year, I want to get at what you would say is the amount used in illicit business.

Mr. BRITT. Doctor Doran corrects my figure and says 60,000,000 gallons. We have to deal with wine gallons. Let my first figure be corrected, if you please.

Mr. FOSTER. In your judgment, what per cent of that 60,000,000 gallons goes into legitimate business and what goes into illigitimate business?

Mr. BRITT. Well, I could not furnish any figures as to that. I could only give you my judgment, as it is reflected to me, from day to day, as I deal with legal questions arising in the three ways that I have mentioned, in unlawful importations, potable liquor, and in alcohol. I give it as my best judgment that 40 per cent of the cases arise from alcohol.

Mr. FOSTER. How long have you been connected with the Prohibition Unit?

Mr. BRITT. I have been chief counsel since June, 1922. I had an experience of a number of years in the Internal Revenue Service prior to that time.

Mr. SUMNERS. Judge Britt, what percentage of alcohol made in this country comes, in one way or the other, under your supervision and control? Do you have any estimate as to how much bootleg liquor is made in this country?

Mr. BRITT. NO, Congressman: I have no estimate. I thank the committee for its kindness and indulgence.

STATEMENT OF DR. J. M. DORAN

Mr. CRAMTON. Mr. Chairman, Doctor Doran, who is at the head of the chemistry and alcohol division, could probably give you some details if you would be glad to hear him.

The CHAIRMAN. How long would you require, Doctor? We have only about 10 minutes.

Doctor DORAN. Mr. Chairman, I have no particular statement to make. I am at the service of the committee for any information purposes.

Mr. CRAMTON. I understand that Doctor Doran has immediate charge

Mr. BRITT (interposing). He is at the head of the division of chemistry and alcohol.

Mr. CRAMTON. Perhaps he could give you information along the line of your inquiry.

The CHAIRMAN. How long would you require to make your statement, Doctor?

Doctor DORAN. As I said, Mr. Chairman, I have no particular statement. I am merely here for any information that the committee may wish to me give. My particular division has to do with the production and distribution of industrial alcohol. There is a permit division as well, but our division has supervision of the conduct of industrial alcohol plants, denaturing plants, and the distribution and use of alcohol withdrawn free of tax for industrial purposes.

Mr. DYER. Doctor, would you know the amount of production of alcohol?

Doctor DORAN. The gross production?
Mr. DYER. Yes.

Doctor DORAN. Approximately 60,000,000 wine gallons per year. Mr. DYER. You heard the statement of Mr. Britt, which was, of course, just a guess on his part, as to the approximate amount that might be taken out for unlawful purposes. Have you any figures on that?

Doctor DORAN. No, and I did not get his reply very clearly.
Mr. DYER. He said the majority of it.

Mr. HERSEY. No; 40 per cent.

Mr. BRITT. Forty per cent.

Mr. DYER. That was a mere guess on the part of Doctor Britt. As long as that is brought out, I think we should have. the facts.

Doctor DORAN. I did not understand whether Mr. Britt meant 40 per cent of the number of violations with which he was familiar or 40 per cent of the total production.

Mr. DYER. The statement that he gave here, as I understood it, was that 40 per cent of the alcohol that was taken out was used for illegal purposes. I do not believe that is true. Of course, if it is, I would like to be sure.

Mr. FOSTER. I think his answer was preceded by mentioning 40 per cent.

The CHAIRMAN. That is his best judgment.

Mr. DYER. I do not think we ought to have that kind of testimony in the record from Judge Britt. He is not supposed to know. It is not his business to know, and we should get it only from those who know. I think it is unfair to the industrial alcohol users to put such testimony in the record, which I am sure is not true.

Mr. FOSTER. I can not see that 40 per cent used illegally could reflect on the legitimate trade.

Mr. DYER. Well, we want the facts.

Mr. FOSTER. Well, take Parke, Davis & Co. How are they affected if they only use 2 per cent? How is it any reflection on them? The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I suggest that we do not indulge in a discussion here. Are there any other questions?

Mr. DYER. I just wanted to ask Doctor Doran if he would furnish the committee with the facts upon that proposition and not have guesses go into the record?

Doctor DORAN. Of course I can not give you a definite statement on the facts. It would be an estimate on my part, based on what sources of information I have. I do not believe I would put the figure that high-that is, 40 per cent.

Mr. FOSTER. Where would you put it?

Mr. DYER. I do not think he ought to put guesses in the record. Doctor DORAN. A guess is very hazardous.

Mr. FOSTER. Has the committee got to the point where it does not want to get the best guess or the best hazard?

Mr. HICKEY. I think what the committee wants to get is the best information.

Doctor DORAN. I am thoroughly familiar with the statistics, and I would as soon give a guess now as a week from now. I could not give you any more information.

Mr. FOSTER. I would like to have your best understanding from your knowledge of this business.

Doctor DORAN. I believe fully 90 per cent of the production goes into legitimate uses.

Mr. MONTAGUE. Goes into what?

Doctor DORAN. Goes into legitimate uses. And if you care to know how I make that deduction, I would be very glad to tell you. Mr. FOSTER. Yes.

Mr. DYER. That is one of the difficulties I encounter in trying to trying to get your judgment.

The CHAIRMAN. I hope the gentlemen of the committee will remain just a moment now. Mr. Perlman has another matter that he wants to bring up.

Mr. DYER. That is why I think it should, be put under the Internal Revenue Bureau, because I think many of those who are in favor of this enforcement are trying to put the industrial alcohol people in the class of criminals and violators of the law, and their agents do the same thing, and instead of enforcing the law as it ought to be enforced, they spend most of the time going around trying to find something on the people who are engaged in legitimate business, to destroy their business. That is so largely in my city.

Mr. BOIES. Would you not permit them to investigate and find out who are the good fellows?

Mr. DYER. I want them to drive out those who are engaged in illicit business, but instead of that

Mr. SUMNERS (interposing). I thought we had a witness there who came to testify and was about to give a basis for his guess.

Mr. FOSTER. He was trying to give the basis of his guess. We had got the statement that 10 per cent was used for illegal purposes. Mr. SUMNERS. I suggest that we declare a truce in the committee and let the witness give the basis for his guess.

Mr. MONTAGUE. I think you ought not to say, "Guess." He is giving his approximate judgment.

Mr. DYER. He is in charge of that part of the work which makes him able to know and to state the situation fairly well.

Mr. FOSTER. He says he wants to state what reason he has for that guess.

Mr. DYER. I think it is unfair to ask Mr. Britt a question which he can not know anything about.

Mr. FOSTER. Mr. Britt's answer shows unqualifiedly in the record. The CHAIRMAN. We will settle another question first, and the gentleman may answer the question when we meet again. Now, when shall the committee meet?

Mr. FOSTER. I understand the gentleman is not to be permitted to answer the question as to the basis for his guess?

The CHAIRMAN. I am trying to adjust the hour for meeting now. Mr. FOSTER. That is the reason I asked the question.

The CHAIRMAN. We have only three or four minutes and there is a little matter of business to be taken up that Mr. Perlman wants to bring up in the committee before we go to the House.

Mr. CRAMTON. Doctor Doran will return at any time you want him.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, we will be glad to hear your answer to that question when we meet again.

Mr. HERSEY. Do we meet to-morrow?

The CHAIRMAN. We can not meet to-morrow.

Mr. HERSEY. The next day is Saturday and we do not want to meet on Saturday.

Doctor DORAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, there are representatives here in opposition to the measure. I do not know how many want to be heard. Mr. CROUNSE. My name is W. L. Crounse, National Wholesale Druggists Association. We would like

Mr. DYER (interposing). Mr. Chairman, I suggest

Our

Mr. CROUNSE (interposing). We wanted to know, if possible, what day next week the committee would be willing to hear the opponents, or rather those who wish to suggest amendments to the bill. people are scattered all over the country, and as much notice as possible would very greatly convenience us in getting here and also assist us in boiling down our testimony so as to save the time of the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you be ready to go on Wednesday?

Mr. CROUNSE. Wednesday or Thursday. We have some important meetings in New York, but we will be very glad to go on Friday of next week. I think we would make it very short.

Mr. CRAMTON. Might I make this observation, Mr. Chairman! Unless it is necessary to present something in rebuttal, we have completed our case this morning with the possible exception of the one question that is unanswered, and I suppose you would not want to call a meeting for that purpose alone.

The CHAIRMAN. It may take some time because they want to bring some evidence from other places. Now, we will meet Monday and finish whatever there is.

Mr. CRAMTON. We have nothing to present further than the unanswered question.

The CHAIRMAN. We will have the privilege of hearing the doctor finish his testimony on Friday.

Mr. HERSEY. Do I understand these witnesses can not come Monday?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; he says so.

Mr. TIERNEY. I represent the manufacturing chemists association. We have a meeting of our executive committee in New York on Wednesday and it would be rather difficult to get them down here earlier in the week. Friday would suit us admirably.

The CHAIRMAN. If there is no objection the chair will appoint Friday for the persons who desire changes in the proposed measure to be heard.

Mr. CROUNSE. We thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CRAMTON. I understand that such testimony as we might care to present in rebuttal, we could present immediately following their case?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. As I understand it, Mr. Cramton, this is not in opposition to the bill, but all these multitudinous letters and communications that we have received are in reference to the business end of the legitimate business.

Mr. CRAMTON. I might as well be perfectly frank about it. Let me make this statement, Mr. Chairman. In my judgment, to meet the wishes set forth by these gentlemen would so vitiate the bill that I would not desire its report.

The CHAIRMAN. We will not discuss that now.

Mr. CRAMTON. Well, I thought the committee ought to know it. Mr. DYER. That is not a very fair statement for the gentleman to make at this stage of the game.

Mr. FOSTER. I think it is manifestly fair in view of the statement of the chair as to these letters and communications.

The CHAIRMAN. There is nothing before the committee at this time except the matter that Mr. Perlman desires to bring up. There is submitted herewith for the record a communication from the secretary of the National Civil Service Reform League, New York.

NATIONAL CIVIL SERVICE REFORM LEAGUE

NEW YORK, March 13, 1924.

Hon. GEORGE S. GRAHAM,
Chairman Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives,

Washington, D. C.

MY DEAR MR. GRAHAM: In Mr. Cramton's bill (H. R. 6645) to provide for a bureau of prohibition, I notice that in section 38 of the national prohibition act, as amended on page 3 of the bill, the employees of the Prohibition Bureau, hitherto exempt from the civil service law, are to be brought into the competitive classified civil service, "except one private secretary to the commissioner, four assistants to the commissioner, and all attorneys in said bureau."

When the national prohibition act was pending in Congress and ever since its passage the National Civil Service Reform League has sought to provide for the civil-service classification of all the employees who under the terms of the law were excepted. It is gratifying at last to find a considerable degree of sentiment among the Members of Congress in favor of the repeated recommendations of the league. We were especially gratified that President Coolidge in his message to Congress last December specifically recommended action along these lines, and particularly that the existing incumbents of positions excepted from the civilservice system should be required to pass the regular examinations in order to continue in office.

The league, however, deplores the enactment of any legislation which would provide for the exception from the civil-service system of any of the employees of this important bureau. Whether some exceptions may be desirable or not, we believe they have no place in the statutes. The terms of the civil service act permit the President of the United States, in his discretion, to make any exceptions from the competitive system that seem desirable. We believe that it is

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