Mr. BLANTON. That is something that the women's bureau can do, isn't it?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. But the women's bureau can do its work, and the Traveler's Aid can do its work.

Mr. BLANTON. That is exactly what I say.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. Yes.

Mr. BLANTON. There is a field for both.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. That is exactly my point. Those fields should be definitely understood.

Mr. HAMMER. It is my recollection that at another hearing Mr. Blanton said that he was not minimizing your work.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. I remember that very statement.

Mr. BLANTON. That was caused by the gentleman from North Carolina not understanding what I was driving at.

Mr. HAMMER. He didn't have sense enough.

Mr. BLANTON. I will let the gentleman place his own construction on that.

Mr. HAMMER. I think I understand the English language.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. That is what I think.

Mr. HAMMER. I just want to call the attention of those who are interested. I remember what occurred then.

Mr. BLANTON. That is a matter of record, and I will stand by the record.

Mr. HAMMER. I just want to call attention to it.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. It is clearly a matter of record.

Mr. BLANTON. I challenge the gentleman from North Carolina to show by that written record that my position ever was any different from what my position is this morning.

.

Mr. HAMMER. I have not said it was different. I don't care to consume any more of the time of this witness by discussing this matter. It is in the record.

Mr. BLANTON. We will let the record stand.

Mr. HAMMER. I just wish to call attention to it and I shall do so, challenge or no challenge.

Mr. BLANTON. And I shall continue to defend my position.

Mr. HAMMER. Certainly. Continue indefinitely. It needs continuing.

Mr. RATHBONE. Even though there may be and there has been at times some conflict of jurisdiction between different bodies, that fact. in itself alone would not be sufficient to constitute a condemnation of either one, would it? For instance, the jurisdiction of the variouscourts is well recognized and defined, but even courts sometimes clash. A man may be committed by one court and released by another judge on a habeas corpus, for instance. A good many cases of that kind might be cited along those lines where different judges have taken different courses with a case and have come into collision, more or less. Now, mere facts of that kind are not in themselves. sufficient to condemn any measure, are they?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. Facts of that kind are what lead me to the belief that it would be extremely dangerous to pass a blanket law like this without having the meaning of it made at least somewhat clear. Mr. RATHBONE. We want to get your position. The point that you raise is that there should be incorporated into this measure a

definition which would be in the nature of a limitation of the sphere of action of these policewomen with regard to preventive-protective powers; is that correct?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. That is correct.

Mr. RATHBONE. And outside of that are you satisfied with the measure as it now stands?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. I have no quarrel with the other portions of the bill that I really know nothing about. I have no objection to the bureau being established by law.

Mr. RATHBONE. You wish it to be placed upon a permanent footing?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. Yes.

Mr. RATHBONE. All right. Proceed.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. As long as Mrs. Van Winkle has stated that all of the powers which are asked for in this bill are now given to the policewomen and that everything necessary is included in the manual, I personally can not see any reason whatsoever for the insertion of section 4. It seems to me that the situation is fully covered by the manual under which they work and by their own statement that they are asking for no increased powers. If they are not asking for any increased powers, why all this detail about what their powers should be? I can not see the point of that. I think the section could just as well be eliminated. You could say, "The functions of the woman's bureau shall be exclusively police functions" and stop right there. It seems to me that that would cover the whole situation fully, in accordance with their own state

ment.

This is the substitution which was suggested last year by the welfare commission:

Mr. RATHBONE. An admonition in a case such as I have cited a few moments ago would be within the ordinary functions and powers of a policeman anyway, wouldn't it?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. I think so.

Mr. RATHBONE. Without any words giving further powers?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. Absolutely. That is what they say themselves. This is a suggested substitution which the welfare commission made:

The functions of the women's bureau shall be to exercise the functions of the police in the cases of women and children, whether offenders or victims of offenders, subject to the laws and regulations of the District of Columbia, and to do such preventive and protective work as is consistent with such laws.

I can not see any reason why that sentence does not fully cover everything that is now expressed in this new section 4; and I think that that could be very adequately substituted, as the welfare commission recommended at the time.

Mr. RATHBONE. You want us to strike out section 4?
Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. Yes; and substitute this.

Mr. RATHBONE. You have given all to the reporter that you wish to substitute?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. Yes; I think that covers it fully. That is the recommendation of the Public Welfare Commission, which I think is certainly to be considered. That was made last year in connection with last year's bill, but this bill is essentially exactly the same bill as the original bill last year.

Mr. RATHBONE. You have no definition now drafted, and no one that you know of who has, in part at least, passed upon that bill has any definition drafted along the lines that you have in mind?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. I have nothing. I think, perhaps, Mr. Ihlder, of the welfare commission, who has been invited to come here and speak, may have something. I prefer to stand by the record of the commission made last year. I have that further corroboration.

Mr. BLANTON. Do you think that that language which you suggested embraces less power than that which could be exercised under the present section 4?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. I think that it very much more clearly defines the powers.

BLANTON. I think that it is fully as broad as section 4.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. I don't think so, Mr. Blanton.

Mr. BLANTON. It would surprise me if Mrs. Van Winkle would object to it.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. It certainly limits the powers as to preventiveprotective work.

Mr. BLANTON. But preventive-protective work can be exercised under that substitute.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. "As is consistent with such laws," the laws under which the police department operates.

Mr. BLANTON. Yes?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. I think this goes further than that.

Mr. BLANTON. In what way?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. I agree heartily with Mr. Hammer's statement yesterday. Why go on to say "exercise such other police functions"? Why analyze those if they are still police functions that the policewoman's bureau is exercising? Why put that down in this bill in such great detail?

Mr. BLANTON. The policemen could do just exactly what section 4 would authorize the policewomen to do if they carried out the provisions of the present laws. It is a duty of a policeman to exercise preventive work.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. Well, if it is, all right. That is all right.

Mr. BLANTON. If a policeman sees some one about to do something bordering on the commission of a crime, it is his duty to stop him. If I were a policeman I would do what I could

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. They say that they have that power now. Why spend so much time trying to get it if they have it already? Mr. BLANTON. They want a legalized bureau.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. Why is it necessary to put all of these definitions of what they shall do into a legalizing bill? It may be possible that police will have to do welfare work some time in the future

Mr. BLANTON. You ladies would not want your police bureau just wiped out by an order that could be passed any day, would you? Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. That is an absurdity. That could not happen. Mr. BLANTON. It could happen.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. I don't believe it could happen. I am perfectly willing to take that chance. I don't think it could possibly happen.

I tell you that the whole thing is wrong. It may develop in the future that the police may have to do welfare work. At the

present time the public is not educated to the point where they expect that of the police. The police are still a threat in their minds. It may be wrong, but it is a fact.

Mr. RATHBONE. Is there anything further?

Mr. HAMMER. I understand your attitude to be I realize that this is a matter that is difficult for you; you have studied this matter a great deal more than I have, but I may have a little more knowledge of the law than the layman; I understand how you hesitate to make any suggestions-but if I understand you, your idea is to place the powers in the policewomen that are in the Police Manual? Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. Yes.

Mr. HAMMER. And that the policewomen are to be granted no further powers than the policemen are granted.

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. Yes.

Mr. HAMMER. The policeman generally assumes some powers, not only the power which he has, but he goes to the limit sometimes according to his nature and his make-up.

The same legislative council prepared this bill that prepared the welfare bill, or reviewed it after it was prepared, and if there are differences among us as to whether we can interpret this or whether there is overlapping, why not refer it as we have done in several other instances, why not refer this bill to the legislative council with the request that they study it in connection with the welfare bill and that they cut out all overlapping?

Mrs. CHAMBERLIN. That is a very good suggestion, I should say. Mrs. VAN WINKLE. May I answer that?

Mr. HAMMER. I would be glad to have you.

Mrs. VAN WINKLE. That was done, Mr. Hammer. Everything was given to the legislative council of the Senate the manual, the regulations, the Code of the District of Columbia, the Federal Code, and all of the pending legislation was given to it.

Mr. HAMMER. Do you mean to say that they were instructed not to permit this bill to overlap the other bill?

Mrs. VAN WINKLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAMMER. Then, they didn't do it.

Mrs. VAN WINKLE. They have done it.

Mr. HAMMER. Judging for myself, I am quite sure-I may misunderstand it-it certainly does overlap.

Mr. RATHBONE. From what limited experience I have had, for instance, in drafting the traffic bill, I think that the legislative council is quite careful about these matters.

Mr. HAMMER. Oh, and the most competent. There is not a lawyer here that has the information that they have.

Mr. RATHBONE. I think they covered that pretty well themselves. That was my experience in that measure.

Mr. HAMMER. I shall take pains to do that on my own initiative, because I know that we have overlapping laws. We have eight different indictments in my State for the selling of liquor. You can indict a man for eight different offenses. They overlap in eight different instances.

Mr. RATHBONE. Are we ready for the next witness?

STATEMENT OF MRS. E. R. KALMBACH-Recailed

Mr. HAMMER. There is a question or two that I would like to ask before you begin. There is a school over at the house of detention. I want to ask you if you have been over there and what observations you have made. Have you ever been to the house of detention and. what observations have you made about the school that was established there? Who established it? At whose instance was it established?

Mrs. KALMBACH. I have been to the house of detention a number of times, and I will just tell you briefly what observations I made on my first visit and other visits.

On my first visit there I was in company with Mrs. Byler. I was taken over the entire building, and I believe I was shown everything from the laundry on up to the top floor. There was nothing concealed and nothing to conceal.

The place was beautifully clean from top to bottom.

The statement has been made that it is not a lock-up. I would like to say that I felt very much locked in right from the start, because at every floor we were locked in; the door was unlocked to let us out and locked behind us. All the stairways from floor to floor were locked off from the other floors.

You enter on what would naturally be called, I suppose, the basement floor. It is an old emergency hospital at Fifteenth and Ohio Avenue. There are laundries and so on on the first floor.

Then we went on to the next floor. There is where they have the schoolroom. It is beautifully light and airy. We were told that it was a schoolroom, but it had no teacher and we found that there never had been a school-teacher there. We were also told that Congress had made an appropriation for a school-teacher there some years ago, but still there was no teacher there.

Upon leaving after this visit we visited Mr. Kramer, who at that time had charge of the hiring of school-teachers in the District of Columbia. He told us that although there was an appropriation there was no teacher there, and that the reason was that the teacher would have to have such special qualifications she would have to understand the teaching of all grades and be a social worker, and so on-that he could not find such a person for the salary offered.

We asked all of our parent and teacher bodies all over the city to write in to Mr. Kramer urging that he appoint a teacher. They did so. Pressure was brought to bear and he appointed a teacher within a few days, although he claimed that he had been hunting for years and could not find one.

Before that time the children were kept there from a few days to several weeks, sometimes reaching into months, and they were deprived of their schooling. That does not happen now.

We went over the girls' and boys' floor. We remarked upon the wonderfully clean floors. I don't believe that there are many houses in the District of Columbia that have such white wood floors as they have up there. The lady who was showing us over the building, who presumably was one of the matrons in charge, laughed at my remark and told us that of course they were clean, that after breakfast the children were set to scrubbing the entire floor, the boys their