distinct units in the department and the appropriation for the maintenance of the house is separate from the police appropriation. The house of detention serves as a place for the shelter and detention of persons held for the courts, various branches of the police department, the woman's bureau, and for private and public school agencies. Lodging is provided for stranded women and children.

Respectfully submitted.

Director Woman's Bureau and House of Detention.

Miss SHEEHY. You held that that letter which Judge Sellers wanted to put in her testimony was hearsay.

Mr. BLANTON. We did not even swear Judge Sellers, but we are putting in her statement, and we will put this in.

Mrs. VAN WINKLE. There are two policewomen here who are willing to swear to their statements.

(Whereupon two policewomen, Miss Rhoda Milliken and Miss Frances M. C. Bird, were sworn by Mr. Blanton.)

Mr. BLANTON. Now, that has been sworn to.

Miss SHEEHY. Have you the right to swear them?

Mr. BLANTON, Yes; and we did not swear Judge Sellers at all. (Whereupon, at 12.15 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned, to meet again at the call of the chairman of the committee.)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, Thursday, March 25, 1926.

The subcommittee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. Henry R. Rathbone (chairman of the subcommittee), presiding.

Unless there

Mr. RATHBONE. The committee will come to order. is objection to the absence of a quorum, we will proceed. Notices were sent out to the proponents and opponents of this bill that this hearing would be held. May I ask Mrs. Van Winkle if she has concluded with her evidence in chief?

Mr. GIBSON. May I suggest that we were on the other side at the time when we adjourned last?

Mr. RATHBONE. On the side of the opponents?

Mr. GIBSON. Yes.

Mr. RATHBONE. Then we will let them conclude. But, first, I would like to ask Mrs. Van Winkle if she has any more evidence in chief.

Mrs. VAN WINKLE. We have an additional written statement which we would like to have inserted in the record.

Mr. RATHBONE. In substance, your case now has come to what we call rebuttal?

Mrs. VAN WINKLE. Exactly.

Mr. RATHBONE. Then, the opponents of the bill will have their opportunity now. We are going to ask you to proceed as rapidly as Have the opponents a list of witnesses who wish to be

you can. heard?

Mrs. GILES SCOTT RAFTER. We are not opponents of the bill in its entirety, but we are very strongly opposed to certain sections of the bill. I am president of the Parent-Teachers Associations.

Mr. RATHBONE. Then, this would be the time for you to be heard. Have you a list of the witnesses that you wish to be heard? Mrs. RAFTER. Yes.

2

Mr. GIBSON. May I ask Mrs. Rafter, are they all going to speak on some provision of the bill?

Mrs. RAFTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GIBSON. Can you marshal them so that we can present it as fully as possible?

Mrs. RAFTER. I think you can depend on it, Mr. Gibson. They are people who have been working very hard with children.

Mr. RATHBONE. If you will come forward now and call on whomever you want.

STATEMENT OF MRS. GILES SCOTT RAFTER, WASHINGTON, D. C., PRESIDENT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA PARENT-TEACHER ASSOCIATIONS

Mr. RATHBONE. Are you representing any special organization? Mrs. RAFTER. I am president of the District of Columbia ParentTeacher Associations.

Mr. RATHBONE. Your organization has already sent in a communication in regard to this bill?

Mrs. RAFTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. RATHBONE. And the national one has also sent in a communication?

Mrs. RAFTER. I don't think they have. That is a matter that I hope to bring out, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. RATHBONE. I see. Now, if you will state your objections to any portion of the bill.

Mrs. RAFTER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen: We, of course, believe in a policewomen's bureau established under the law. We absolutely stand for that. I don't believe. any intelligent group or averagely intelligent group would be opposed to a pol cewomen's bureau established by law. But we as parents absolutely object to the policewomen's bureau taking upon itself the duties of a juvenile court-handling our children in any way, shape, or manner.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. I feel that the hearings last year and this year have well established the fact that Mrs. Van Winkle is capable, that Mrs. Van Winkle has money, that Mrs. Van Winkle is good-looking; but I can not see what that has to do with the establishment of a policewomen's bureau.

Mr. RATHBONE. You don't intimate, do you, that anyone of this committee thinks so either?

Mrs. RAFTER. Mr. Chairman, it has come out in all the hearings again and again and again that Mrs. Van Winkle has all of these splendid traits and I think

Mr. GIBSON. May I suggest that we are not sitting in judgment on Mrs. Van Winkle?

Mrs. RAFTER. I know. I say that we believe in her

Mr. GIBSON. What we want to know is about this bill.

Mr. RATHBONE. I think I am speaking for the committee in saying that no personal matter will be considered by the committee. Mrs. RAFTER. That is very delightful.

Mr. RATHBONE. It would expedite matters if you would eliminate that.

Mrs. RAFTER. All right. I just wanted to establish the fact that we believe all of these things that have been thoroughly established by the committee hearings.

I went to the Congressional Library and found the latest definition of "policewoman." A policewoman is "a member of an organized police force charged with special duties in relation to women." That is a very good definition of a policewoman.

Mr. RATHBONE. From what did you get that definition?

Mrs. RAFTER. From the Century and others-I can not remember the names-the latest books in the Congressional Library, the dictionaries giving the 1925 definition of "policewoman."

We feel that this bill would have passed last year if it had restricted itself strictly to the matter of establishing a policewoman's bureau under the law and had not undertaken to do all the things that this bill says it is going to do.

Mr. Chairman, we are absolutely opposed to the policewomen undertaking to care for children except in the emergency of having the house of detention under the policewomen's bureau.

Mr. GIBSON. Would you have the detention house under the policewomen's bureau?

Mrs. RAFTER. No, sir. I would have it under the juvenile court for children. It is not necessary for them to keep children, except under extreme cases, over the first hearing of the juvenile court. We have a Board of Children's Guardians that can handle these children. We have our police and our juvenile court departments, which can handle children very quickly and get them back into their homes or back into an environment in which they more or less belong.

Mr. Chairman, the point that I wanted to bring before this committee is this fact: We are absolutely opposed to the policewomen's bureau handling our children. I handed this bill to a well-known judge, not connected with the District of Columbia, the other day and he read it and turned it over and read it over and laid it on the table and said, “Mrs. Rafter, if that bill passes, before a year it closes your juvenile court."

Mr. RATHBONE. Under the rule of law, that would not be competent evidence, and I think that unless the judge is ready and willing to appear and state that here in person, it would be fairer and better as a well-known principle of law not to rely upon that portion of it. Those who have objections, I think, as well as those who favor this bill, had better come here in person or at least in writing.

Mrs. RAFTER. Another matter that I wish to bring before this committee is that I was in Austin, Tex., last April when this bill was brought forward by Dr. Valeria Parker, who read it and placed it before the convention. Of course, I was astounded when I heard "and children " in the bill, because it had been decided by the committee last year, the congressional committee, that those two words should be left out. I rose and stated what happened at the hearings last year at the Capitol. As Dr. Valeria Parker did not seem to agree with me in my testimony, and as it was a matter between the two of us, it was left to the floor of the convention.

Mr. RATHBONE. May I interrupt you a moment? I don't like to break the continuity of your statement.

Mrs. RAFTER. Yes.

Mrs. RATHBONE. I believe that it would be helpful for this committee if you would specifically point out the functions of this women's police bureau, as embodied in this bill before us, with relation to children, that you object to. What is there that this bill gives them the power to do with regard to children that you object to? Mrs. RAFTER. I object to everything in the bill with regard to children.

Mr. RATHBONE. What does the bill say that she has a right to do? Mrs. RAFTER. She has a right to deal with all matters relating to women and children. It says more along that line. It says that the bureau shall "cooperate with the proper officials in the prosecution of all cases" relating to women and children. The words " and children" are all through this bill.

Mr. Chairman, I must have as a matter of record this fact, because that was put into the record by the executive secretary, who is a paid employee of the National Congress of Parents and Teach

ers

Mr. GIBSON. Who is she?

Mrs. RAFTER. Mrs. Arthur Watkins. She put in the record at the last hearing this resolution that was passed, supporting the bill. Here is the resolution as it was passed: "Proceedings of the Twentyninth Annual Convention of the National Congress of Parents and Teachers." She left out this part of the resolution that I have marked and she read that part of the resolution and this part [indicating].

Mr. HAMMER. I beg your pardon, but at the time I asked her about these things, and I think the lady did not intend to do that. I think she wasn't advised about it. I was impressed and thought that she was sincere. I don't think that she intended to leave a wrong impression.

Mrs. RAFTER. It is a resolution adopted by the National Congress of Parents and Teachers.

Mr. GIBSON. May she put that right in?

Mr. HAMMER. I would like to have that in. I would not like that to go in as a reflection on the lady. I don't think she intended it in that way.

Mr. RATHBONE. May I ask the pleasure of the committee and suggest that it might be well for Mrs. Rafter to mark the specific passages in the resolutions that we ought to incorporate, and then we will incorporate them in the record.

Mr. HAMMER. And that are contained in the record of the official proceedings of the meeting.

(The resolution referred to is as follows:)

Whereas the qualified policewoman is one of the effective agencies in the protection of young people in public places, and in the prevention of delinquency: Be it

Resolved, That the National Congress of Parents and Teachers in convention assembled hereby indorses the standards and purposes of the International Association of Policewomen with the extension of special services rendered to women and girls by trained and qualified policewomen and in the establishment of women's bureaus in police departments, under the immediate direction of a

qualified women, with rank equal to that of those officers in the police department who are immediately subordinate to the directing head; be it further Resolved, That the National Congress of Parents and Teachers hereby indorses and calls upon the United States Congress to enact into law at its next session Senate bill 4308 or a bill providing for similar standards of service, which will make permanent the women's bureau of the Metropolitan police department, which has for seven years rendered excellent service in the Nation's Capital City.

Mrs. RAFTER. I would like to call your attention to the fact that this bill as it stands to-day has never been before the National Congress of Parents and Teachers. It only meets in convention once a year. It met last April and it meets again on the 3d of May in Atlanta, Ga. So this bill has never been before the National Congress of Parents and Teachers.

Mrs. Van Winkle, at the request of Dr. Valeria Parker, appeared before the executive board of the national congress, which has no power to act, and it simply says in the minutes:

Minutes of the meeting of the executive committee of the National Congress of Parents and Teachers, national headquarters, Washington, D. C., February 23, 24, 25, 1926.

After a discussion of the policewomen's bill Mrs. Cooper moved that Lieutenant Van Winkle be asked to speak for a few minutes on the subject of House bill No. 7848, introduced by Congressman Gibson, and Senate bill No. 7150, introduced by Senator Capper.

That is the whole comment by the executive board of the national

congress.

The National Association of Policewomen have on the back page of their publication a statement that the National Congress of Parents and Teachers indorsed the words "women and children" in this bill; and they did not.

Mr. RATHBONE. Are there any material differences between the bill before us now and the bill which was under consideration by the National Parents and Teachers Association when they took that action?

Mrs. RAFTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. RATHBONE. What are those material differences?

Mrs. RAFTER. I haven't that bill. I have the new bill; but this bill is very much more comprehensive, I think, than the old bill. It takes in a great deal more than the old bill.

Mr. RATHBONE. Just what does it take in?

Mrs. RAFTER. Well, of course I am not a lawyer and I haven't gone into this. It seemed to me that that belongs to the committee. But it takes in more of the dealings from a social-service standpoint with children.

I do not feel that a policewoman, however well trained she is in social service, is qualified to be a judge and a jury. That has nothing to do with her qualifications, however well she is qualified for socialservice work.

Mr. RATHBONE. What portion of the bill do you claim confers upon policewomen powers that are ordinarily considered as in the hands of a judge or a juror?

Mrs. RAFTER. When the policewoman takes a child into the house of detention and questions that child and goes into the history of the child and the policewoman decides that that child may go back to its home or it may do this or it may do that, that is taking the qualifica