Mr. ROHLEDER. Except that one time.

Mr. TOLAND. That is all he said?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. TOLAND. Never gave you hell or anything?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Sure, he has bawled me out. I am used to getting bawled out four or five times a day.

Mr. TOLAND. I mean, it wasn't anything different. He didn't act any differently on that one bid than he did any other time with you? Mr. ROHLEDER. He was plenty mad.

Mr. TOLAND. That is the only time he ever said anything about it. to you?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right. Oh, from time to time he brought other papers up.

Mr. TOLAND. About what?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Things Mr. Burns was finding.

Mr. TOLAND. Just what was being found

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. I am through with him.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rohleder, you are excused. Do you wish to say anything further? Have you completed your statement? Mr. TOLAND. Have you finished your statement. Go ahead, say what you want.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You have that privilege.

Mr. TOLAND. You have that privilege, Mr. Rohleder, if you wish to make a statement. I have no interest in the matter except to present it. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. If there are any details, the committee will be glad to have them.

Mr. ROHLEDER. We have put in one of the hardest years of our life down there working for the interest of Cramp Shipbuilding, and Cramp Shipbuilding Co. only. That is all I have to say. We did everything that they wanted us to everything that we could.

Mr. TOLAND. You didn't deceive the naval officers and Cramp Shipbuilding Co. as to what you were doing?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I did not; no, sir.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. All right, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. That is all.

Mr. ROHLEDER. All the lump-sum contracts that I had awarded me on that job the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. had the privilege to make those a fee contract or award them anyway they wished.

Mr. TOLAND. You didn't think much of cost-plus-fixed-fee contracts when you heard that Day & Zimmermann was going to get the job. You criticized them in the letter to Weyerbacher and said that that was the way they operated and that they were expensive.

Mr. ROHLEDER. The difference between a 7 or 8 percent overhead and a 3 percent overhead makes an awful lot of difference on the work; it makes an awful lot of difference in the cost of the work.

Mr. TOLAND. I have no more. I will call Admiral DuBose at 2 o'clock.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. The committee is adjourned until 2 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 12:20 p. m., the committee recessed until 2 p. m. of the same day.)

AFTER RECESS

The hearing convened at 2: 10 p. m., Representative Bradley, acting chairman, presiding.

Mr. TOLAND. Are you ready, Mr. Chairman?

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

Mr. TOLAND. Admiral DuBose.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you solemnly swear the evidence you are abut to give the Naval Affairs Committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Admiral DUBOSE. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ADMIRAL WILLIAM G. DUBOSE, CHAIRMAN OF THE
EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE AND PRESIDENT, CRAMP SHIPBUILD-
ING CO., PHILADELPHIA, PA.

Mr. TOLAND. What is your full name, Admiral?
Admiral DuBOSE. William G. DuBose.

Mr. TOLAND. Where do you reside?

Admiral DUBOSE. My Philadelphia residence is University Club, Sixteenth and Locust.

Mr. TOLAND. What is your present business or occupation?

Admiral DUBOSE. At the present time I am the chairman of the executive committee and president of the Cramp Shipbuilding Co.

Mr. TOLAND. How long have you been connected with Cramp, Admiral?

Admiral DuBOSE. I have been connected with the Cramp Co. since October 1940.

Mr. TOLAND. October 2?

Admiral DUBOSE. October 2, 1940, I was elected a director and appointed chairman of the executive committee.

Mr. TOLAND. Admiral, will you tell us briefly your previous history with regard to the Navy Department and the assignments you have had?

Admiral DU BOSE. I entered the Naval Academy in 1893, having been appointed by Congressman Black, of Georgia. I graduated in 1897; following a post-graduate course of instruction which was at the Naval Academy, and interrupted by the Spanish-American War, during which time I served on the New York. I was commissioned an assistant naval constructor in July 1899, and completed my post-graduate course in naval architecture at the University of Glasgow, Scotland.

I returned from Glasgow, and my first duty was at the Portsmouth (N. H.) Navy Yard. I served at various navy yards, naval stations, and in the Navy Department at Washington from 1900 until October 1, 1940, when I retired for age.

Mr. TOLAND. Admiral, what was your assignment or designation, prior to October 1, 1940, at the Department?

Admiral DUBOSE. I had been on duty in Washington from November 1932. I was Assistant Chief of the Bureau.

Mr. TOLAND. That is the Bureau of Ships?

Admiral DUBOSE. The Bureau of Construction and Repair. I was Assistant Chief of the Bureau of Construction and Repair from 1932

until March 1937, when I was appointed chief constructor and Chief of the Bureau of Construction and Repair, which position I held until September 16, 1939. At that time I was detailed to the David W. Taylor Model Basin as director. In July 1940, I was given additional duty in the National Defense Advisory Commission under Admiral Land, who in turn was under Mr. Knudsen. Land and I were in the Shipbuilding Division under Mr. Knudsen.

I was relieved of my duty as director of the Model Basin in August 1940, and continued my duty with the National Defense Advisory Commission and had received orders from the Navy Department to remain on duty after reaching the statutory retiring age, but subsequent to the receipt of those orders I requested that I be placed on the retired list, inactive, which was done by the Navy Department.

Mr. TOLAND. Can you tell us what reasons, if any, caused you to request your retirement?

Admiral DuBOSE. I did not request retirement. I was retired automatically for age. I requested not to be continued on active duty after reaching the retiring age. That request was made to accept the position with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co.

Mr. TOLAND. To accept the present position you hold?

Admiral DuBOSE. To acept a position as director of the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. and chairman of the executive committee.

Mr. TOLAND. When was the first time that you were consulted, Admiral, about the Cramp Shipbuilding Co.?

Admiral DuBOSE. I was never consulted about the Cramp Shipbuilding Co., if by that you mean anything connected with the formation of the company.

Mr. TOLAND. Your present position or employment with the company.

Admiral DUBOSE. The first time that anything at all had been said to me was some time in August 1940, at which time it was suggested that possibly I might be interested in going with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. in some capacity. The suggestion was made, as I recall, by Admiral Land, and subsequently by Admiral Robinson. Mr. TOLAND. That was in August?

Admiral DuBOSE. That was in August 1940.

Mr. TOLAND. When was the first time Mr. Ripley or Mr. Reed consulted you about the Cramp Shipbuilding Co.?

Admiral DuBOSE. I don't remember exactly when Mr. Reed first consulted me. Mr. Reed had come on from the west coast to Washington to confer about his joining the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. He saw me the afternoon of the day that he was here and asked if I would be interested in becoming vice president of the Cramp Shipbuilding Co.

Mr. TOLAND. That was Mr. Reed?

Admiral DuBOSE. That was Mr. Reed.

Mr. TOLAND. Do you remember when that was?

Admiral DUBOSE. I do not remember exactly. It was probably in August also. I said that Mr. Reed had come on from the west coast and was here for the purpose of looking into his own association with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co.

At the time of his visit to me I did not know that he had definitely closed with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. and I am not sure now that

he had definitely closed at that time. However, his conversation with me was, "How would you like to come with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. as vice president?"

My answer was, "Under whom as president?" and his answer was, "Me."

I said, "I hadn't heard that you had been definitely selected for president."

I believe he answered, in substance, something like this: "Well, I haven't been selected yet, but it is more or less up to me. If I want

it I can have it."

My answer to his query was that I was not interested in being vice president of the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. under him or anybody else, that I had no objection to him personally but I did not want the job as vice president of Cramp Shipbuilding Co.

Then he said, "How would you like to come in a consulting capacity, after you retire?"

I said, "That appeals to me more, although I don't think very much of that."

That was the end of that conservation.

Mr. TOLAND. Who was it, Admiral, that suggested that you continue on with the National Advisory Council after you had reached your retirement age?

Admiral DUBOSE. I don't know that anybody suggested it. We were making preparations for possible war, and many officers who were going on the retired list were retained on active duty. If anybody suggested it, it would have been Admiral Land, because I was serving under him, but I think it was more or less an automatic procedure.

Mr. TOLAND. Of the Department?

Admiral DuBOSE. Of the Navy Department.

Mr. TOLAND. If you had not made the request to be retired

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (interposing). Not to be retired.

Mr. TOLAND. To be relieved from active duty, would you have undoubtedly then continued on?

Admiral DuBOSE. I had orders so to do.

Mr. TOLAND. So that in August you had orders to continue on after your retirement period had arrived?

Admiral DuBOSE. That is correct.

Mr. TOLAND. On active duty with the National Advisory Council? Admiral DuBOSE. That is correct.

Mr. TOLAND. And because of the possibility of employment with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. you asked to be relieved from active duty? Admiral DUBOSE. I did, after consultation with the Acting Secretary of the Navy and obtaining his permission so to do.

Mr. TOLAND. Now, is it a fact that even before you went with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. Admiral Land wanted you to go with him at the Maritime Commission?

Admiral DuBose. Admiral Land, in 1939, shortly after I left the Bureau of Construction and Repair, had talked to me about going with him at the Maritime Commission.

Mr. TOLAND. Wasn't there some concern on the part of Mr. Reed or Mr. Ripley that during the period between the time that they first talked with you and October 2 they believed that Admiral Land was trying to get you to go with the Maritime Commission?

Admiral DUBOSE. I can't answer what Mr. Reed or Mr. Ripley were concerned about in that connection, but, so far as as I know there was no reason for their being concerned about that, because Admiral Land had made no proposition to me at that time to go to the Maritime Commission. It had been a year before.

Mr. TOLAND. What was your compensation in September 1940 ? Admiral DUBOSE. In September 1940 I was a rear admiral on the active list of the Navy. My pay and allowances totaled $9,700 a year. Mr. TOLAND. $9,700? What compensation did you receive with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. and receive now?

Admiral DuBOSE. I have received ever since I have been with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co., first as chairman of the executive committee and now by virtue of being president, a salary of $36,000 a year. Mr. TOLAND. Thirty-six thousand?

Admiral DUBOSE. Thirty-six thousand a year, of which twenty-five thousand is charged to overhead operating expense, the other eleven thousand being charged to the company's corporate expense.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you know, Admiral, how that compares with salaries of presidents of other shipbuilding corporations?

Admiral DuBOSE. I have seen returns obtained from the Securities and Exchange Commission indicating that salaries of shipbuilding executives in the other shipyards are in many instances materially in excess of that.

Mr. TOLAND. Admiral, you also draw retired pay, do you?
Admiral DuBOSE. I do.

Mr. TOLAND. In what amount do you draw retired pay annually?
Admiral DuBOSE. The amount is six thousand.

Mr. TOLAND. So that the total compensation you receive is thirty-six thousand from the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. and six thousand from the Navy Department, or the Government of the United States?

Admiral DUBOSE. So far as the salaries or compensation from those two sources, that is correct.

Mr. TOLAND. I requested you in a telegram, Admiral, to be prepared to submit a list of all the ex-naval officers employed by Cramp, their compensation and the amount of retired pay.

Admiral DUBOSE. I have here a tabulation giving that information. Mr. TOLAND. I would like to offer it in evidence.

(The tabulation dated May 20, 1942, was received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 300.")

Admiral DUBOSE. Do you wish me to read it?
Mr. TOLAND. I will read it, Admiral, for you.

CRAMP SHIPBUILDING CO..

Retired naval officers:

May 20, 1942.

W. G. DuBose, president; $36,000 salary, $6,000 retired pay. Rank, rear admiral.

R. D. Weyerbacher, vice president and general manager; salary, $25,000; retired pay, $4,350. Rank, commander.

G. Fulton, chief engineer; $15,000 salary, $4,500 retired pay. Rank, captain. H. V. Baugh, supervisor-personnel; Cramp salary, $5,700; retired pay, $3,015. Rank, lieutenant commander.

H. R. Brannon, stores control supervisor; salary, $4,800; retired pay, $1,740. Rank, lieutenant.

D. H. Kane, supervisor-plant protection; Cramp salary, $4,800; retired pay, $3,150. Rank, lieutenant.