contract that would be considered on that, and I suggested a guaranteed-cost contract.

Mr. MAAS. You can't make me believe that you agreed to make the estimates and spent 30 days of your time or more without having discussed what was going to happen. That just isn't natural, and I don't think that you want to try to make that statement to this committee. You certainly discussed it.

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't think so; no, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. May I interrupt, Mr. Maas? Didn't you tell Mr. Beal that you had an understanding with Commander Weyerbacher that he would give you every consideration in regard to the contract?

Mr. ROHLEDER. You mean back in 1938 ?

Mr. TOLAND. No, no, no! At any time, whether it was in 1939 or in October 1940 before the contract was ever awarded to you, didn't you tell Mr. Beal when he interviewed you that there was

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't remember.

Mr. TOLAND. That there was an understanding with Commander Weyerbacher, if the plant reopened, that you would be given every consideration?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, consideration and contract are two different things.

Mr. MAAS. They didn't turn out to be different in this case. You got the contract. Isn't it a fact that when you made your original negotiations of any nature, whatever your understanding with Commander Weyerbacher was, that you would get the work, that you didn't expect to have to bid on it, and when it was discovered that bids had to be submitted; that that was a requirement of the banks or the Cramp Co. or the Navy in backing the banks; that then the bids were supplied to comply with the requirement, but from the very beginning you expected to get that work, and expected to get it, on a negotiated basis?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. MAAS. Well, That is what we have been trying to find out; that you did have an understanding then.

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, not exactly.

Mr. MAAS. And the reason that you were out at the plant before a contract was let was that you had the understanding that you were going to get the work, and you had already moved in and started the work.

Mr. ROHLEDER. I had the understanding that I was going to get the four-story office-building contract only, Congressman, when we moved in there.

Mr. MAAS. Whatever it was that you were going to get when you started your work out there was with the understanding that you were going to get that job.

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. MAAS. And the bids came along subsequently simply to comply with the requirement that you didn't even know was going to have to be made.

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know whether they had the bids then or got them afterward.

Mr. MAAS. But they got them afterward. You certainly became aware of it somewhere along these proceedings.

Mr. TOLAND. They didn't get any.

Mr. MAAS. You became aware that bids had to be obtained in order to justify your getting the contract.

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. MAAS. Do you mean to tell this committee that you never knew that these additional bids were obtained in connection with your original contract?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I did not, sir.

Mr. MAAS. You never knew until it became disclosed by these pro ceedings?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I have no knowledge of it.

Mr. TOLAND. As a matter of fact, Mr. Maas, the bids were never obtained, but they were put on a quotation approval sheet as if they had been obtained subsequently.

Mr. MAAS. And the witness testifies that he never even knew that happened?

Mr. TOLAND. Right.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Maybe, as Dickens would put it, he had great expectations.

Mr. TOLAND. I have just a few more questions. Isn't it a fact that in connection with the contract which was negotiated for the I. P. Morris shop, wasn't that negotiated with you by Commander Weyerbacher without any bid opening with the supervisor of shipbuilding present, and that there were two other bids, both of which were received in open letters? Isn't that a fact?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Wait a minute, I don't understand that. Will you repeat that, please?

Mr. TOLAND. I would like to offer in evidence a report of the Cramp company's former president, Mr. Reed.

(The report referred to was received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 290.")

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Will you read it, Mr. Toland? This is different from the memorandum of Mr. Reed which was previously offered?

Mr. TOLAND. Right. This concerns purchase order 215, dated May 19, 1941:

From: James Reed.

Subject: Confidential.

Captain Hanson advises that a job involving the work on buildings 9, 10, 19, 20, 25, and the I. P. Morris shop Nos. 38 and 39, amounting to $181,000, plus $6,000 in fees, was negotiated by the general manager with Charles F. Rohleder without any bid opening with the supervisor of shipbuilding present, and that there were only two other bids, both of which were received in open letters.

The supervisor of shipbuilding insists that the above were only presented to him subsequently upon his request. He states that this is a very definite viola. tion of instructions from the supervisor of ships, as well as from the Navy Department.

Do you recall that contract that you got?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I imagine that is the one that he was talking about here a while

ago.

Mr. TOLAND. No. 215?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you get the two letters from your friends, MurphyQuigley and Stewart?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you ever get two letters at any time and submit them to Commander Weyerbacher in the contract which he was trying to persuade the Navy to give you?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I did not, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you ever call Murphy-Quigley and Stewart and ask them for bids?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I did not, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you ever call anybody for bids?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. You never called a single, solitary company for a bid? Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I never have, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. I show you what purports to be a letter dated August 7, 1941, to the Cramp Shipbuilding Co., signed by you, and ask you if you sent that letter? You had an office downtown, didn't you? Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, sir.

That is right, that is my letter.

Mr. TOLAND. I offer it in evidence.

(The letter. dated August 7, 1941, was received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 291.")

Mr. TOLAND. Did you charge the expense of the operation of the office downtown to the contracts at Cramp?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. What work was done at the downtown office while you were at Cramp's?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Lump-sum contracts.

Mr. TOLAND. The lump-sum contracts?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. All of the work was handled there?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No; not all of it.

Mr. TOLAND. This is on the witness' stationery, dated August 7, 1941:

CRAMP SHIPBUILDING CO.,

Richmond and Norris Streets, Philadelphia, Pa.

(Attention Mr. A. A. Ricker.)

GENTLEMEN: In reply to your letter of July 28, with reference to a refund of $150 on purchase order No. 1154.

In this connection before final bill was submitted for payment, this matter was thoroughly discussed with the engineering department and the amount of this bill was settled. The bill was then presented for approval and signed by both Mr. Dustin and Mr. Rust, and as I understood at that time was approved by Mr. Bell of the Navy Department, but it seems as though the Navy approval had not been obtained.

Several days ago when they were settling several items with the Navy, of which this work was one, I understand in the course of discussion of this work there was a misunderstanding of the final figures and the Navy approval came through for an amount which was $150 short of the amount paid to me. This has been explained to the writer by the plant engineering department, and they admit the amount I billed and was paid was correct, and they would go back to the Navy and get the amount corrected if I so desired, but rather than place them in this embarrassing position and waste considerable time in the next 3 or 4 weeks arguing and talking about this amount, I am enclosing herewith my check for $150 which I hope will close this matter.

Signed by the witness.

Do you have any explanation to make about that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, it explains itself.

Mr. TOLAND. It speaks for itself?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. I would like to offer in evidence a recapitulation of all the contracts awarded to Anderson, the plumber, under the general contract of C. F. Rohleder, not to be printed.

(The document referred to was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 292," and is filed with the committee.)

Mr. TOLAND. I would like to submit to the witness certain purchase orders and ask him if he can testify concerning them. These bids are all phony bids. They have not been heretofore offered. I offer them in evidence.

(Purchase orders referred to were received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 293," and are filed with the committee.)

Mr. ROHLEDER. Mr. Toland, these do not pertain to the construction work.

Mr. TOLAND. I show you a memorandum to Rainey dated January 17, bearing your signature, and ask you if you dictated the original of that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. I offer it in evidence.

(Memorandum dated January 17, 1941, was received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 294.")

Mr. TOLAND. I will read that one. It is from the witness to Rainey, dated January 17.

In connection with the purchase of any electrical wiring or cables for the electrical distribution system, the commander desires, everything being equal, that we use Anaconda cable.

Signed by the witness.

Now I show you what purports to be material obtained from your files, your own personal files, copies of communications with bidders, that the record shows submitted phony and false bids to the company. I don't ask that those be printed. I ask that they be shown to the witness and that they be filed as an exhibit.

(Documents referred to were received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 295," and are filed with the committee.)

Mr. TOLAND. Mr. Chairman, while he is examining that, I would like to offer in evidence bid summaries and bids that were not heretofore offered when Mr. Dewees, Mr. Callanan, and Mr. Leithold were on the witness stand, in which the Westinghouse was the successful bidder. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are these taken from the files?

Mr. TOLAND. Taken from the files of the company, original documents of the Cramp Shipyard. These contain information and complementary bids.

(The bid summaries and bids referred to were received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 296," and are filed with the committee.)

Mr. TOLAND. I will offer in evidence another file taken from the witness' office, of Westinghouse Electric bids, forged bids, that were not previously introduced.

(The bid summaries and bids referred to were received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 297," and are filed with the committee.)

Mr. TOLAND. These were all found in his office. I don't ask that they be printed.

I offer in evidence the bid summary and bids in which the witness was the successful bidder, being the lump-sum contract that I ques

tioned him about, in the amount of $21,235. I ask that it be filed and not printed.

(The bid summaries and bids referred to were received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 298," and are filed with the committee.)

(Statement of J. F. Marren was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 299.")

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are those last ones that you have shown to the witness, shown to him for the purpose of having him identify them?

Mr. TOLAND. Merely as coming from his particular file.

Mr. ROHLEDER. They are our orders; most of them are under $100. Mr. TOLAND. I didn't ask you that. They were documents taken from your files.

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes; I think they were.

Mr. TOLAND. Where is the folder?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Right there, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. I have offered that in evidence.

You have identified committee exhibit 295 as being papers that were contained in your own file?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. TOLAND. That is all.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Mr. Toland, I think we will adjourn until 2 o'clock.

Mr. TOLAND. I am through with the witness.

Mr. ROHLEDER. May I make a statement?

Mr. TOLAND. Right. Go ahead.

Mr. ROHLEDER. My contracts were all with the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. They have no reference or any tie-in with any contract they may have with the Navy Department. I was working directly under their instructions, their orders, and approval. I could not purchase anything over $100 without having their approval first.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you know that you were barred by the company at a board of directors' meeting from receiving any future accounts? Mr. ROHLEDER. I know that I would have gotten out long before. Mr. TOLAND. Did you know it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No.

Mr. TOLAND. When was the first time you knew it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. At this testimony.

Mr. TOLAND. When it came out here?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Your good friend the Commander didn't tell you anything about that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No.

Mr. TOLAND. He was present and voted, did he not?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I suppose he was. I imagine he didn't want to hurt my feelings.

Mr. TOLAND. That is the only reason?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I imagine so; I don't know.

Mr. TOLAND. He has been very solicitous, has he not, of your feelings for the last 2 years?

Mr. ROILEDER. No; not exactly. Every morning he would ride me the or four times to get the work done.

Mr. TOLAND. Did he ever call you in about the forged bids and irregular bids?

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