Mr. ROHLEDER. That was with reference to one electrical bid; yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. But it involved six companies, six contracts, didn't it? Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know.

Mr. TOLAND. Weren't you advised of the investigation that Mr. Minor made as to those six subcontracts?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. What did you do, if anything, after that time with regard to phony bids or the elimination of any phony bids?

Mr. ROHLEDER. After that time I personally looked at them myself. Mr. TOLAND. So you looked at them after September 10?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. TOLAND. And you made sure that they were in good order?
Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, as far as I could see; yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. How much of an examination did you make?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I didn't have much time to make much examination, Mr. Toland.

Mr. TOLAND. What did you do, then? You just said you looked at them yourself.

Mr. ROHLEDER. All right. Everybody at the office after that time looked very closely at all bids received.

Mr. TOLAND. Isn't it a fact that your daughter was employed in the purchasing department?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That has nothing to do

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). I didn't ask that. Isn't it a fact?
Mr. ROHLEDER. Yes; that is right.

Mr. TOLAND. What were her duties?
Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know.

Mr. TOLAND. You don't know?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No.

Mr. TOLAND. What are the duties of the purchasing department? Mr. ROHLEDER. I imagine to purchase materials.

Mr. TOLAND. And they pass on bids and contracts and see that they comply with the law?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know whether they do or not. I presume they do.

Mr. TOLAND. You don't know very much about the place, do you? Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know very much about Cramp Shipbuilding's work.

Mr. TOLAND. You don't?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. TOLAND. How many people did you have on your pay roll that were also on Cramp's pay roll?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Three.

Mr. TOLAND. Who were they?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Hogeland, Baldridge, and Miss Eckert.

Mr. TOLAND. And what did they do?

Mr. ROLLEDFR. Baldridge was the estimator; Miss Eckert was my secretary; Hogeland was a draftsman.

Mr. TOLAND. How many employees did you have under these contracts that you had whose salaries were charged as cost against the Cramp contracts?

Mr. ROHLEDER. None.
Mr. TOLAND. What?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I didn't get that.

Mr. TOLAND. I say, how many employees did you have on your

own

Mr. ROHLEDER (interposing). Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Who were working for you, whose salaries were charged by you against the Cramp contracts, against the Cramp company?

Mr. ROHLEDER. You mean working on my particular work and Cramp was paying for them?

Mr. TOLAND. Yes.

Mr. ROHLEDER. None, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Other than these three you mentioned?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. TOLAND. How did you happen to have these three paid by Cramp?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Only part of their time was paid by Cramp.

Mr. TOLAND. They were Cramp employees, weren't they?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Sir?

Mr. TOLAND. Were they Cramp employees?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. How did you stick Cramp with part of their salary? Mr. ROHLEDER. Because he was working on this rehabilitation work. Mr. TOLAND. All the rest of your employees were also working under rehabilitation work, weren't they?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. TOLAND. How do you distinguish between those three and your other employees?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I think I misunderstand your question.

Mr. TOLAND. I am not trying to trap you, Mr. Rohleder.

Mr. ROHLEDER. I know that; I am trying to explain it to you. Mr. TOLAND. I am trying to get the facts for the committee. I am trying to find out how you can have employees under contracts that you had and how you could charge their salaries against Cramp Shipbuilding Co., what justification there is for it.

Mr. ROHLEDER. All right, when we first went down there all my employees went on the rehabilitation pay roll.

Mr. TOLAND. Rehabilitation pay roll?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. TOLAND. That was the contract of October 29?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. TOLAND. That was your pay roll?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That was my pay roll but it was chargeable to that work; yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Why did you charge the salary of these three people against the Cramp Co.? What did they do for Cramp that the other people that you had working for you didn't do?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Well, I think you misunderstand that. Only half of their time was charged to Cramp.

Mr. TOLAND. I mean even half of their time.

Mr. ROHLEDER. All right, the other half of their time was chargeable on the lump-sum contract.

Mr. TOLAND. Why was half of their time charged against Cramp? They weren't Cramp employees?

Mr. ROHLEDER. They were my employees, and the entire overhead was supposed to be charged to that job.

Mr. TOLAND. Yes; but that came out of the lump sum that was agreed upon, or the cost-plus-fixed-fee agreement that you made. Mr. ROHLEDER. The cost-plus-yes, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. You say that you checked, after September 10, all the bids? You had your employees check?

Mr. ROHLEDER. They were all checking them.

Mr. TOLAND. You don't want this committee, do you, to believe that there weren't any phony bids submitted after September 10, 1941? Mr. ROHLEDER. None that we knew of.

Mr. TOLAND. Take a look at this one. Does that look all right to you?

Mr. ROHLEDER (examining paper). I don't see anything wrong with

that, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. You don't see anything wrong with that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. I offer that in evidence.

(Exhibit previously marked "Committee Exhibit 195-00" was received in evidence.)

Mr. TOLAND (to assisting counsel). Give me all the others that are in evidence.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What are those, Mr. Toland?

Mr. TOLAND. I would like the record to refer to these exhibits. Commander Weyerbacher testified that after that time, great diligence was exercised with regard to bids, and here are phony bids dated August 15, September 27, August 29, August 22, August 19, August 27, and August 20. These are already in evidence.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. From whom were those bids, Mr. Toland, for the information of the committee?

Mr. TOLAND. These bids were all submitted and approved by the supervisor of ships, submitted to him by the Cramp Shipbuilding Co., initialed in some instances by the person authorized. Who is the individual represented by those initials?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know; I never saw that.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. From whom do they purport to come, I mean?

Mr. TOLAND. They came from the purchasing department of the Cramp Shipbuilding Co. to the supervisor of ships for approval. Here is one bid of

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (interposing). I mean whose bids were they?

Mr. TOLAND. One of them was Rohleder himself for $64,000, containing the bids of Stewart and Murphy-Quigley, and then there are other companies involved.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You mean they are bids from companies who later denied that they submitted them?

Mr. TOLAND. No, no; they are bids that were submitted to the company on which there was testimony on the first day of this hearing by companies and officials connected with some of the companies. Then with regard to the contract that the witness got, there is the bid of Murphy-Quigley and Stewart & Co., and of course we offered the letter of the witness which he didn't mail. But they are all in sup

port of the testimony of the first day that the bids are not proper and that they were either complementary or forged.

I show you what purports to be a copy of your contract, unsigned, for the reconditioning of the four-story office building, nine-story office building, and replacing the roof of the fabricating shop, and ask if that is a copy of the contract that was awarded?

you

Mr. ROHLEDER. This appears to be a copy; I can't be sure. It has been copied from the original.

(The copy of the contract referred to was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 286," and is filed with the committee.)

Mr. TOLAND. Do you have a copy of your contract with you?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, I have not, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. What papers did you bring with you?

Mr. ROHLEDER. The only one I have is an estimate submitted here in evidence the other day, the [Purchase Order] 215 contract.

Mr. TOLAND. On what?

Mr. ROHLEDER. On the 215 contract.

Mr. TOLAND. What did you receive in connection with that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. The other day there was evidence put in here that I was given a contract for $190,000 when some other contractor submitted an estimate, I believe, for $104,000.

Mr. TOLAND. What is your explanation for that?

Mr. ROHLEDER. The only explanation for that is that this $190,000 is the budget set up by Cramp's after all these bids were received. My comparable bid on that $104,

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). Wait a minute. Is it your testimony that the estimate was set up by the company after the bids were received?

Mr. ROHLEDER. These budget estimates, the amounts are generally set up afterward, yes, sir, because the scope of the work is either increased or decreased.

Mr. TOLAND. Isn't it a fact that that was before you bid and that you were the only bidder that knew the estimate of the company as to the amount of the contract was $190,000?

Mr. ROHLEDER. There is no one knew that amount until some time after all these bids were in.

Mr. TOLAND. No one?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. You were not informed or advised of the estimate that the job would cost approximately $190,000?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir, no, sir, because

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). Did you talk with Rust or Dustin about their estimates?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Wasn't your estimate the same as the company's?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Didn't you estimate the job would be $190,000?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. What did you estimate the job would be?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I think our estimate was considerably more.

Mr. TOLAND. How much?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't remember.

Mr. TOLAND. That is purchase order 215, isn't it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right.

Mr. TOLAND. And those exhibits are all in evidence. That was for the rehabilitation of buildings 6, 3, 4, 17, 18, 19, 54, 27, 38, 39, and 20. Is that right?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is right, but the estimate was first based on only 6, 3, 7, 17, 18, 19, and 54.

Mr. TOLAND. The bids submitted by all of the other contractors as to the estimated cost were less than yours. Isn't that a fact? Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Who bid higher than you?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I don't know. I don't know what the other bids

were.

Mr. TOLAND. Why did you say "No, sir," then? Isn't it a fact that Irwin & Leighton, the company you worked for, estimated that job at $143,000?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I couldn't say, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you prepare that statement on the stationery of Irwin & Leighton?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you cause it to be prepared?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Absolutely not.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you call anybody at Irwin & Leighton?

Mr. ROHLEDER. Absolutely not.

Mr. TOLAND. You never called anybody and asked anybody for complementary bids?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. TOLAND. You never asked anybody at the company to do that? Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. If you had, would you admit it?

Mr. ROHLEDER. I would, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. And the testimony of people that have been here and testified under oath that your office had called for complementary bids

Mr. ROHLEDER (interposing). I don't think anyone ever called for complementary bids. I don't see any advantage in it.

Mr. TOLAND. I didn't ask you that. Didn't you tell Mr. Minor when he talked with you that you knew about these phony bids and that you told Weyerbacher about them?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. You never made that statement to Mr. Beal and Mr. Minor?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; that was just a misunderstanding somewhere.

Mr. TOLAND. So that when Mr. Beal in his report to the company makes the statement that you told him, then Mr. Beal is telling a falsehood?

Mr. ROHLEDER. That is not a truth, sir.

Mr. TOLAND. It is not a truth?

Mr. ROHLEDER. No, sir; I never knew a thing about this until the time I was called down to Commander Weyerbacher's office and showed a bid that happened to be a carbon copy of another bid. When he