Mr. NAUGHTON. We have discussed four prior projects, two in the Southwest, one at the Learning Research and Development Center, and the proposal for a grant from the Office of Economic Opportunity. All of these are in some fashion at least related to the proposed Shawano application. As a matter of fact, probably the most closely related is the OEO proposal, which you wrote, and some of the language was lifted verbatim from it and put into the Shawano proposal.

So I guess if there is any one man who is familiar with the background on this, it would be you, wouldn't it, Dr. Bright?

Dr. BRIGHT. I think so.

Mr. NAUGHTON. In other words, if this project has one father, would it be fair to state it was you?

Dr. BRIGHT. In initially pulling together these various skills into one organization, yes; not so far as being responsible for the technical content itself.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Well, is there anybody else that has had as much to do over the long pull with this series of events as you have, up to the time you joined the Office of Education?

Dr. BRIGHT. I Would say Dr. Homme, on a technical basis, certainly far predates my interest. And the computer competence, Ramage probably does. Certainly, in the knowledge of the entire operation, Spoerer does.

There are several people that have been as intimately and as long involved as I in different parts of it.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Was Mr. Spoerer associated with the OEO proposal also?

Dr. BRIGHT. Yes. He was the sales representative for the Westinghouse research lab, assigned to the educational activities.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Now, Mr. Homme, Mr. Ramage, and Mr. Spoerer were all concerned with the poverty program proposal which you wrote?

Dr. BRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. NAUGHTON. And Dr. Homme and Mr. Ramage and Mr. Spoerer, of course, are all concerned with the Shawano proposal?

Dr. BRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Were you concerned with the Shawano proposal prior to the time you joined the Office of Education?

Dr. BRIGHT. No, I was not.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Did you or did you not make a call to Wisconsin to Mr. Kenote, to tell him you would be out to see him about the Shawano project?

Dr. BRIGHT. NO. I did have a call from—well, it wasn't the Shawano project at that time.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Well, it wound up being the Shawano project, did it not?

Dr. BRIGHT. It was what wound up being the Shawano project. I did have a call from Mr. Kenote, and as I recall I arranged for Mr. Spoerer to go out and talk to him. I never did.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Did Mr. Kenote call you or did you call him? Dr. BRIGHT. In the particular case, I don't know, but we didn't initiate it. If we called him, it was in response to a suggestion that we call him.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Well, he had previously visited the Albuquerque laboratory, as you told us, and talked with some of the people there. After that visit, did you call him when he got back to Wisconsin?

Dr. BRIGHT. I don't honestly know whether I called him or he called

me.

Mr. NAUGHTON. But there was a call?

Dr. BRIGHT. Yes, there was a call and I arranged to have Mr. Spoerer go out and visit.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Did the original plan call for you to go out there and visit?

Dr. BRIGHT. I don't know.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Let me quote at this point from a letter written to George Gruber, the superintendent of schools for Shawano County, by George Kenote. It was written on August 30, 1965.

Mr. Kenote told Mr. Gruber-this is a direct quote

Today a Dr. Louis R. Bright, Associate, Division of Research Development Center, Westinghouse Corp., Pittsburgh, Pa., called to say he will be in this area in about a month and wants to talk project apparently, and directly with

you.

Is that an accurate representation of what happened on August 30, 1965?

Dr. BRIGHT. Yes, I recognize there was a phone conversation in which someone from the lab-perhaps including me was going out to talk, or they wanted us to come out to talk. It wasn't I remember, convenient at the time, but since we were going to go out there a month or so later, we arranged a visit to him at that time. It well may have been that I was expecting to go on the trip also. I did not, as it turns

out.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Instead you came to work for the Office of Education.

Dr. BRIGHT. Well, several months later.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. What was the date you entered into your agreement to come to the Department of Education?

Dr. BRIGHT. I would have to check and see when the first letters went between Loomis and myself. I don't know the date at the moment in which we started discussing this possibility.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. When did you start discussing the possibility?

Dr. BRIGHT. At the moment, I don't honestly know. I would have to look it up.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Do we have any records to indicate that?

Mr. NAUGHTON. We can get them.

Dr. BRIGHT. I can check the file.

(Dr. Bright subsequently supplied the following statement:)

First contact was a telephone conversation on or about the week of October 11, 1965.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. When did you actually go to work?

Dr. BRIGHT. January 15, 1966, I believe.

Mr. NAUGHTON. It was announced on December 21, 1965, was it not? Dr. BRIGHT. That I would be, yes.

Mr. NAUGHTON. We can put in the record the press release that was issued at that time.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. If there is no objection, it will be put in the record.

(The press release referred to appears in app. 8, p. 212.)

Dr. BRIGHT. The press release came out almost immediately after it was cleared by civil service.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Subsequent to August 30, 1965, did you receive a letter from Mr. Gruber dated November 19, 1965?

Dr. BRIGHT. I don't honestly know. I received lots of mail at that time that was distributed to others. I do not recall the letter.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Do you have any reason to believe that a letter did come from Mr. Gruber addressed to you and wound up in Mr. Spoerer's hands?

Dr. BRIGHT. I wouldn't be surprised. I do not remember such a letter.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Mr. Chairman, we have a copy of a letter from Mr. Gruber addressed to Dr. Bright, dated November 19, 1965, in which Mr. Gruber said, in effect, that he had expected Dr. Bright to be out to see him about this proposal and was wondering why he hadn't gotten there.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. What proposal?

Mr. NAUGHTON. The one that wound up to be the Shawano proposal. I think the letter might be put in the record at this point.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. If there is no objection, the letter will become a part of the record.

(The letter referred to follows:)

Dr. Louis R. BRIGHT,

SHAWANO, Wis., November 19, 1965.

Associate, Division of Research Development Center,

Westinghouse Corp.,

Pittsburgh, Pa.

DEAR MR. BRIGHT: In reviewing correspondence from Mr. George W. Kenote, dated August 30, 1965, of Menominee Enterprises, Inc., Neopit, Wis., he refers to a telephone conservation with you and indicated that you expected to be in contact with me around the first of October regarding further investigation of the Westinghouse research in education as it might serve the Menominee Indians of Menominee County.

I have been most anxious for this anticipated conference to materialize, and am wondering whether or not you still see a visit to our area as a possibility. I am certain that you would find a great need, a great deal of enthusiasm, and certainly excellent cooperation. I will be most anxious to hear from you. Sincerely,

A. A. GRUBER,

Superintendent, Joint School District No. 8.

Mr. NAUGHTON. Mr. Gruber told me on the telephone that he received no answer to the letter, but did get a call around the middle of December from Mr. Spoerer, who indicated you would not be able to make it, and then Mr. Spoerer came out on the 21st, and they started talking about the project, and before long your project had been adapted, rewritten, new facets added and submitted.

Dr. BRIGHT. That is right.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Thank you, Dr. Bright. We may have some more questions later, but I note that Commissioner Howe has been waiting some time.

The committee will take a 5-minute recess at this time.

(Recess.)

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Let the committee come to order and the record show a quorum is present.

We are delighted to have you with us, Commissioner Howe. We appreciate your taking the time to come up. I am sorry we had to delay calling you. We did have a few more questions of Dr. Bright we wanted to get into the record.

I guess since we have sworn your subordinates, we should swear you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are giving in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HowE. I do.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD HOWE II, COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION, U.S. OFFICE OF EDUCATION

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Commissioner Howe, as head of the Office of Education, what action, if any, have you taken for the purpose of trying to insure that employees of the Office of Education are familiar with Federal conflict of interest statutes and regulations and that there is strict compliance with these regulations on their part?

Mr. Howe. Well, Mr. Chairman, as I am sure you are aware, we have published materials in regard to this, available to all appropriate levels of staff. We make these generally available. We, of course, operate both under departmental regulations in this regard, which are subsidiary to Government-wide regulations, and our own interpretations, where we have special circumstances.

I can't recall the exact dates on which we have discussed problems arising in this connection, but I know this matter has from time to time been raised in the regular meetings of the group we call the executive group of the Office of Education, which includes all of the Assistant and Associate Commissioners and other chief officers of the Office.

Sometimes we discuss, as a general matter, conflict of interest so that these executive people can raise these problems with their officers, as they meet with their subbureaus or departments. Sometimes we discuss a particular question that has arisen. We do endeavor to make people aware of these things, to interpret our regulations in particular cases, and to use particular cases as a way to help the staff learn about problems that might develop.

In my own case it has been largely a question of learning through particular cases, because these matters do come up. I would say, for example, that we have been engaged in trying to recruit a person from private industry for the past several weeks. It turns out that there is a kind of conflict of interest in that instance, where we won't be able to recruit him, in spite of the fact that this person would be a very good public servant. So we are aware of these things. And I think it may be, as this agency has grown and expanded and has much broader responsibilities given to it over a very short period of time, that we perhaps should place additional emphasis on this particular matter. We want to be meticulous about it, and I can say for myself, I have tried to be and tried to encourage the Associate and Assistant Commissioners to be.

I know Dr. Estes has followed through on these things in his bureau. I can't document this, but I assume the same thing has hap

pened in other bureaus. This is the broad picture of our interest in this problem.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Before proceeding further, I would like to ask this question. Have you had difficulty, or do you experience difficulty in getting competent people to agree to come into the Department in a public capacity because they have an interest which might be construed as a conflict of interest?

Mr. Howe. I would say only occasionally, not on any regular basis. But occasionally the kind of situation comes up in which the affairs in which a person is entwined, in his own personal life, are of such a direct relationship to what he might be doing in the Office of Education, that conflict of interest could arise. In those situations we do as I did in this recent instance I cited to you. I take it up with the Department attorneys. There are two attorneys in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare who are specialists in this area, and who advise persons like myself about these problems. But it is not a frequent issue.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. What precautions, if any, that you are familiar with, have been taken by the Office of Education to guard against possible conflicts of interest involving employees of research and development centers, or regional educational laboratories supported by funds from the Office of Education?

Mr. Howe. I am not familiar with specifics here related to these organizations. I would say that at least an employee of the regional education laboratories, and perhaps the R. & D. centers-I would like to get advice on this-would not have exactly the same relationship to the Federal Government as a direct employee.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. I was going to ask in the next question as to whether or not you thought the employees of such centers or laboratories were subject to Federal conflict-of-interest statutes and regulations.

Mr. Howe. Here I have nothing but an opinion. But by and large these are employees of universities, in the case of R. & D. centers, and they would in my view have pretty much the same relationship to conflict-of-interest statutes that any other employee of a university would have.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. The funds go through the university and they are in turn paid by the universities.

Mr. Howe. Yes. The laboratories are different. They are independent corporations, chartered usually in the States where their main offices are. We would regard them as independent organizations, with their own boards of directors, and very much the same position relative to us in the legal sense that a university would be, I would imagine.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. I wonder if you could ask your legal staff to supply us with copies of any applicable statutes or regulations as to whether or not the employees of these centers, and laboratories, are subject to Federal conflict-of-interest statutes and regulations. I know some statutes exempt certain people.

Mr. HowE. We would be happy to do this.

(The following statement was subsequently supplied by the Office of General Counsel, Department of Health, Education, and Welfare :)

Employees of educational laboratories are not employees of the Government and are not subject to the conflict-of-interest statute, Public Law 87-849, or the Department's regulations thereunder which apply only to Government employees. 85-889-67- -9