Mr. MULLER. Yes; and that was a fair rate.

The CHAIRMAN. The price of corn was then $2.05 and they fixed the price of hogs at $16. That was price-fixing for you by a commission.

Mr. MULLER. That was a fair price, too.

The CHAIRMAN. $16?

Mr. MULLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. If the commission found the ratio should be 13 to 1, it should be $25.65 instead of $16.

Mr. MULLER. It was a fair price to us, because we could produce hogs and make a fair profit on them at that price.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make a profit on hogs at that price?

(Mr. MULLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you keep books?

Mr. MULLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There is a certain ratio?

Mr. MULLER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your opinion about that; should it be 12 to 1, or 13 to 1, or what?

Mr. MULLER. I could not tell you, because that would depend, in the first place, on the cost of the land.

The CHAIRMAN. Or the cost of the corn?

Mr. MULLER. What I mean by the cost of the land, the cost of the production of the corn, is it will cost us much less in South Dakota to produce a bushel of corn than in Illinois.

The CHAIRMAN. What should it be in proportion to a pound of pork?

Mr. MULLER. It may cost more in South Dakota to produce a bushel of corn than it does in Kansas, so that the relative price of those things should depend upon the locality from which they come.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you fix one price in one locality and another price in another locality?

Mr. MULLER. I do not think so. I think the general level of prices ought to do it.
The CHAIRMAN. You think the general level would be about $1.75 to $2?
Mr. MULLER. What is that?

The CHAIRMAN. You think the general level of prices should be about $1.75 to $2 a bushel for wheat?

Mr. MULLER. I think so; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The representative from North Dakota suggested $1.50. He said that that matter had been discussed in that State and that the farmers of that locality would be satisfied with $1.50.

Mr. MULLER. In North Dakota, you understand, the land is cheaper and newer, and they farm on larger tracts, and they can produce for less than we can in South Dakota, and they can produce, I imagine, for a good deal less than they can in Kansas. The CHAIRMAN. What the committee is trying to get at is what price, if fixed, would be a reasonable price-what should be the price. We have not been able to get anybody together on that proposition. It is suggested all the way from $1 a bushel to $4.40.

Mr. SINCLAIR. You recognize there are varying conditions between different sections of the country?

Mr. MULLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SINCLAIR. And the conditions differ in different years, which will change the price and the cost of production?

Mr. MULLER. Yes, sir. That is why I say this commission, or the Secretary of Agriculture, with power to act, should adjust that matter. For instance, if wheat is high and corn and cotton goods are cheap and manufactured goods are cheap, there would be no reason for holding wheat up.

Mr. SINCLAIR. Another thing, you recognize there is a little different condition at the present time. An emergency exists, as far as the farmer is concerned, as against the war period?

Mr. MULLER. Yes.

Mr. SINCLAIR. He has got a worse period than during the war period, has he not? Mr. MULLER. Yes.

Mr. SINCLAIR. And he needs some emergency aid at this time?

Mr. MULLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. TIERNEY. I represent the National Fertilizer Association. In reference to the resolution, we would like to ask permission to be heard at the next meeting of the committee.

Mr. TINCHER. Whom do you represent?

Mr. TIERNEY. I represent the National Fertilizer Association.

Mr. TINCHER. Are you opposed to the resolution?

Mr. TIERNEY. I have not had a chance to talk with our members, but I think they have some information they would like to give you that would be profitable to you. The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it will be so ordered.

Now, Mr. Muller, you may proceed, or were you through?

Mr. MULLER. I am through.

(The committee thereupon adjourned.)

COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
Thursday, February 1, 1923.

The committee this day met, Hon. Gilbert N. Haugen (chairman) presiding. Mr. ASWELL. Mr. Chairman, let us hear Mr. Marsh on the Stevenson resolution while we are at it.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Marsh, will you go on now and make your statement on the nitrate proposition?

Mr. AsWELL. We want to finish the resolution we have up now and you are the only one left.

Mr. MARSH. Both Mr. Wills and Mr. Lovell would like to get away and if I could, I would like to yield to them.

Mr. TINCHER. What bill do they want to be heard on.

Mr. MARSH. The committee was good enough to say that they could be heard for 10 minutes a piece on the Sinclair marketing bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Whom do you want to hear first, Mr. Marsh.

Mr. MARSH. May I ask that the committee first hear Mr. H. E. Wills, who is the Assistant Grand Chief of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and the Washington representative of that organzation.

STATEMENT OF MR. H. E. WILLS, LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. WILLS. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I am free to confess that I am not as familiar as I would like to be in regard to the details of this bill.

Mr. CLARKE. What bill do you refer to?

Mr. WILLS. The Sinclair bill; but I have, I think, general knowledge about what the bill is intended to do, having been a farmer boy myself and all my family, as far back as anyone knows, having been farmers, and a large percentage of my relatives are now trying to be New England farmers. They are not making very much of a success at it, as you all know, but I feel interested in this matter, and also as representing an organization I feel interested in this bill because I am interested in the welfare of my country, and I do not think we can succeed or prosper unless the farmer prospers, and I feel interested because of correspondence I have had with the other executive officers of the organization that I have the honor of representing, and they heartily favor something that will help the farmers, and they have so expressed themselves. My chief executive has expressed himself as believing that as an organization we can and should go along in favor of the pending bill. Beyond that, I do not know that I could put myself on record in such a way that would be considered of real benefit or advantage to you, so far as information is concerned, as I know you possess all of the details, whereas I perhaps lack much of them.

Mr. ASWELL. If this bill has any effect on your organization it would probably be that it would raise the prices to the farmers, and that would raise the prices of wages, or, in other words, unless the prices to the farmers are raised the prices of wages must fall, and that makes you personally interested in the bill.

Mr. WILLS. We believe there is a natural

Mr. ASWELL. Is not that a fact? Unless the prices that the farmers receive are raised your wages are bound to decline. That is an economic fact.

Mr. WILLS. Well, perhaps, so understood.

Mr. KINCHELOE. Has your organization, as an organization, ever taken any direct action on this particular legislation?

Mr. WILLS. On this particular bill?

Mr. KINCHELOE. Yes.

Mr. WILLS. No; but we have taken action, convention action, and the advisory board that is authorized by the convention to act for the organization during the

interim between the meetings of the convention has taken action favoring something of this nature that would be calculated to help, aid, and assist the farmer.

Mr. KINCHELOE. Then you have taken action on the general proposition that you want legislation that will be of benefit to the American farmer?

Mr. WILLS. Yes, sir.

Mr. TINCHER. Have you gone to the extent of discussing and deciding as to whether or not in an effort to benefit the farmer you want the Federal Government to go into the business of purchasing and selling, with Government funds, the surplus products of the farmers? This bill appropriated $500,000,000 or authorizes the issuance of bonds to create a corporation to purchase and sell the surplus farm products, export them, and go right into the business. Has your organization, as an organization, or have you gentlemen representing that organization as a committee indorsed that principle of government?

Mr. WILLS. I can not say that we have indorsed that as it would work out in detail, no; but we have indorsed and favor something of this nature.

Mr. JONES. Have you indorsed the principle of a general marketing measure and a measure for the financing of the foreign exportation of farm products?

Mr. WILLS. We are practically committed to that idea and to that plan. We are interested, as you perhaps know, and our organization has taken a very active interest in cooperative work. We have a cooperative bank in Cleveland that belongs to our organization and its members. We started in two years ago with $1,000,000 capital paid up and $100,000 surplus. We have to-day $20,000,000 on deposit in our bank. I think that is a record that no other bank has ever come up to.

We are committed to this general plan of cooperation and to the benefits to be derived by one assisting the other as a general proposition.

If I may, I will be glad to read a letter coming from my chief executive. It says: "The Norris-Sinclair bill

Mr. CLARKE. Who is the letter from?

Mr. WILLS. From Warren S. Stone, grand chief of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers.

"The Norris-Sinclair bill, S. 4050, H. R. 12966, is now before the committee. I regret that it will be impossible for me to appear before your committee in person to give it the official indorsement of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and to urge upon you

This is addressed, by the way, to your chairman, and a copy was sent to me

"To urge upon you and your committee that the bill be promptly reported out so that we can get the necessary action. I know of nothing more important to the farm interests at this time than the enactment of the bill into law, for I believe that measure is of permanent importance to the farmers of the United States. Kindly give it consideration and accept this as the official indorsement of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers."

Now, I am here to simply enphasize

Mr. VOIGT. Does that refer to the Norris-Sinclair bill.

Mr. WILLS. Yes.

Mr. VOIGT. What is the date of that letter?

Mr. WILLS. That letter is dated November 29, 1922.

Mr. TINCHER. Then your organization has taken official action in indorsing the bill. Mr. WILLS. The advisory committee through our chief have indorsed this bill. Mr. KINCHELOE. But that bill never come up in your national convention where the merits of the particular bill were discussed.

Mr. WILLS. No; because our national convention met a year ago last May and meets again a year from next May; three years.

Mr. KINCHELOE. As I understand it, the action of that convention was to appoint a committee to advise on behalf of the organization relative to legislation in general, and this committee, the head of which signed that letter, has indorsed the bill?

Mr. WILLS. We have a standing committee to which all such matters are referred that come up in the interim between our conventions. Our convention only meets once in three years.

Mr. KINCHELOE. What is the membership of your organization?

Mr. WILLS. Eighty-five thousand.

Mr. KINCHELOE. And as I say, of course, your convention through their delegates there assembled have not indorsed any proposition of this kind.

Mr. WILLIS. No; because you see we have not met since a year ago last May.

Mr. CLARKE. Are you familiar with the changes the Senate has very recently incorporated in the bill.

Mr. WILLS. Not to the extent that I would be in position to discuss them thoroughly. The CHAIRMAN. Your contention is that the interests of your organization and the interests of the farmers are in common.

Mr. WILLS. Absolutely, yes, sir; and we want to assist, if possible, in doing something for them, believing it will be for the best interests of all concerned.

Mr. ASWELL. If they get better prices for their products, are you willing to pay the increased prices for your foodstuffs.

Mr. WILLIAMS. It does not necessarily follow that that will happen.

Mr. ASWELL. Why not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The farmers could have quite an advance in their prices now and still be way under the present retail prices.

Mr. WILLS. We are willing to pay the going prices, of course.

Mr. ASWELL. I am asking him a hypothetical question. If it should increase the prices of farm products, are you willing to pay those prices. Mr. WILLS. We would expect to pay the prices, surely.

The CHAIRMAN. The representatives of your organization have gone on record declaring they are in favor of paying the additional price provided this belief can be granted.

Mr. WILLS. Yes; we expect to do that.

The CHAIRMAN. They are in favor of the return of prosperity in order to get work for the employees.

Mr. WILLS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that all, Mr. Wills?

Mr. WILLS. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Wills.

Mr. WILLS. I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and say that I am pleased to renew old acquaintances.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF MR. ARTHUR J. LOVELLL, VICE PRESIDENT AND NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE, BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIREMEN AND ENGINEMEN, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. LOVELL. Mr. Chairman, I desire to make an appearance in behalf of the organization that I have the honor to represent in favor of the Norris-Sinclair marketing bill by instructions of Mr. Robertson, the president of our organization.

Our convention last held was in June, 1922. Our convention, by action, supported some measure of this sort, and in a letter of instructions from Mr. Robertson he asked me to make an appearance before this committee, which I am here to do. I am very pleased to do it because I was born and raised on a farm and lived there until I was about 16 years old. My dad has lived on a farm all his life and my grand-dad before him, and I have knowledged that the farmers have had a rather bad time in the last couple years. Being a Hoosier and living in the fertile State of Indiana, of course, we think that that is the best place in the world, but the president of the bank where I do business and have done business for 20 years, Mr. Sager, president of the Logansport State Bank, told me last October that some of the farmers in Cass County, Ind., were borrowing money to pay their taxes, which would indicate to me a bad condition of affairs. I know the farmers in that vicinity intimately for a raduis of 10 or 20 miles. I used to take an active interest in politics when I was a young fellow, and I met many of them in that way, and I know that they have had to pay high prices for their machinery during the war and high labor costs, and the prices of their products during the last couple years have been very, very low.

Mr. KINCHELOE. You say that your organization in convention assembled passed a resolution for legislation of this character, have you a copy of that resolution? Mr. LOVELL. I do not know whether I have that with me or not.

Mr. KINCHELOE. If you have not it with you, will you put it in your hearing?

Mr. LOVELL. I will be glad to do that; yes, sir.

Mr. KINCHELOE. Because I would like very much to see it.

The CHAIRMAN. Also put in the letter to which you referred.

Mr. LOVELL. Yes, sir; I will do that.

The CHAIRMAN. You need not take the time to do that now, you can submit it later. Mr. KINCHELOE. You say you have not that resolution with you now?

Mr. LOVELL. No, sir; I do not seem to have it in this little file I brought over here with me.

Mr. KINCHELOE. You can file that later.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; we are rather crowded for time so you may go on now and submit that later.

Mr. LOVELL. I think that is about all I have to say except that the railroad men live in every State of the Union and perhaps 75 per cent of the men who go railroading are farmer boys. I was a farmer boy myself, and I hope that many of the men that I

worked with in the 14 years I was on the railroad were boys from the farms, the large majority of them. That perhaps does not apply everywhere, but I think it would be a fair statement to say that perhaps 75 per cent of the men who are in railroad service have been boys that came up from the farms, and our men now live in places where they can not grow their own foodstuffs and work on the railroad. They are bound to buy from the markets, or in some way get their foodstuffs produced by the farmers. The farmer is the backbone of the business of this country and they certainly need some help. A very good friend of mine, Mr. W. K. Ferguson, who was a railroad man and a country boy, quit the road 10 or 15 years ago and went out into Scobey, Mont., and has a big farm out there. He wrote me about three months ago a personal letter stating that he had a lot of wheat. I have forgotten just how much, but several thousand bushels, and stated that the market price there was 60 cents a bushel at that time and the elevators were full and they had no cars. He told me in the letter he would be glad to sell me the wheat and deliver it any place I said, either to the terminal or to the railroad, for 50 cents a bushel in cash money, which would indicate to me that conditions were rather bad if the conditions of other farmers in that locality were similar to his.

Mr. TINCHER. Where did he live?

Mr. LOVELL. Scobey, Mont. His name is W. K. Ferguson.

Mr. SINCLAIR. That is not unusual. All the farmers in that Northwestern country were situated in the same way last fall.

Mr. LOVELL. I think so. I was up in that vicinity some time last fall and coming down on the train from St. Paul to Chicago, I met one of the representatives of the International Harvester Co. I do not know whether this is pertinent for the record or not, and if you do not wish me to put it in the record, it is all right, but we were simply in conversation in the smoking car and were talking about the farmers and their general situation, and he said, "I am collecting for the International Harvester," and I said, "How do you find collections," and he said, "Rotten." I said, "What are you doing about it? Are you foreclosing," and he said, "No; that would be an assinine policy. We are carrying the farmers. We know that they are honest and we know that they will pay for their machinery as soon as they can, but they can not pay now.

I think that is a good policy for the International Harvester Co. to follow. They know that the farmers will pay because essentially the farmers are honest and they pay their bills, but a man can not pay when he can not sell his produce.

Mr. SINCLAIR. What is the membership of the organization which you represent. Mr. LOVELL. About 115,000.

The CHAIRMAN. You are in accord with the sentiment that anything that will benefit the fariner will be to the benefit of the employees.

Mr. LOVELL. Certainly, we are. I can concur in everything that Mr. Wills has said, speaking for the transportation organizations.

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you very much, Mr. Lovell.

COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
Friday, February 2, 1923.

The committee this day met, Hon. Gilbert N. Haugen (chairman) presiding. There were present: Mr. Haugen, Mr. McLaughlin of Michigan, Mr. Voigt, Mr. McLaughlin of Nebraska, Mr. Tincher, Mr. Williams, Mr. Sinclair, Mr. Clague, Mr. Aswell, Mr. Kincheloe, and Mr. Jones.

STATEMENT OF DR. GEORGE H. SHIBLEY, DIRECTOR OF THE RESEARCH INSTITUTE.

Doctor SHIBLEY. Mr. Chairman, there are four bills, to supplement my statement, that I want to refer to. One bill is a bill in Congress to encourage profit sharing in independent plants and provide for an improved form of Government regulation of interstate commerce and foreign commerce; also to improve Federal commissions in general.

A bill to the 48 legislatures to encourage profit sharing in independent plants and provide for an improved form of Government regulation in State affairs; also to improve State commissions in general.

A bill to the 48 legislatures to authorize the citizens of the municipal corporations of the States to more effectually protect themselves by means of municipal industrial commissions.