Mr. HOBART. That refers to the nonservice-connected disability, so called?

Mr. TABER. Well, yes; that is, it is called that.

Mr. HOBART. Yes, sir; we are.

Mr. TABER. Now, there is an item of approximately $113,000,000 or $114,000,000, Spanish War pensions, service connected and nonservice connected. At any rate they are not required at this time to establish service connection. What is your attitude with reference to them?

Mr. HOBART. Our organization is taking no specific action with reference to Spanish War veterans, except in the general sense, as I explained in my statement, that we are opposed in principle to all allowances for disabilities which are not war incurred.

Mr. TABER. And how about the Civil War item of approximately $108,000,000?

Mr. HOBART. I can only give you the same answer.

Mr. TABER. Now, outside of that particular recommendation for a refusal to pay the bonus prior to its due date, and for the repeal of the disability allowance act of 1930, your organization has no recommendation to make to this committee?

Mr. HOBART. They are restricted exactly, sir, to those two recommendations.

Mr. TABER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you touch in your statement on the emergency officers' retirement act?

Mr. HOBART. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Has your organization taken a position on that? Mr. HOBART. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Therefore you could not speak for the organization?

Mr. HOBART. No, sir.

Mr. TABER. What is your position with reference to these soldiers' homes?

Mr. HOBART. That, again, sir, has not been acted upon by our organization.

Mr. TABER. Or hospitalization?

Mr. HOBART. I am unable to answer that, sir, for the same reason. Mr. TABER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know anything about a committee known as the justice committee?

Mr. HOBART. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Ís that connected with your organization? Mr. HOBART. They are all members of our organization; yes, The CHAIRMAN. What is the justice committee?

sir.

Mr. HOBART. I am not altogether sure that I can tell you exactly because I am not a member of it. If I may state a personal opinion I will try to explain what my knowledge, as far as it goes, is on the subject. As I understand it, it is a group of veterans who are primarily opposed to the prepayment of the adjusted service certificates, and are conducting an advertising campaign of public education on that particular question. I have seen, I think, two advertisements which they have had published.

The CHAIRMAN. When was it formed, recently?

Mr. HOBART. Comparatively. I could not give you the exact date.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know the number of its membership?
Mr. HOBART. No, I do not. It is small.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe I have no further questions to ask this witness. We are very much obliged to you for your statement. Mr. HOBART. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe you said you had no other gentlemen to speak for your organization this morning?

Mr. HOBART. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, sir. Senator Means will be here at 10 o'clock to-morrow morning to offer some suggestions as to possible economy which the committee will be very glad to hear. We have not heard a great many.

Now, I have a letter here from the national representative of the Disabled American Veterans which refers to this committee in rather a complimentary term. I am going to take the liberty of reading it, and express publicly the thanks of the committee for the letter, which I did this morning in a letter to the writer.

DISABLED AMERICAN VETERANS OF THE WORLD WAR,
Washington, February 1, 1933.

To the Hon. JOHN MCDUFFIE,
Chairman Joint Congressional Committee,

House Office Building, Washington, D. C.

MY DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: As the time approaches for the completion of the hearings before your committee, it is desired to record the sincere appreciation of the Disabled American Veterans for your consistent consideration since the organization of the committee. As I said in my statement, all the members of your committee have assignments that are, in many ways, most distasteful, for endeavoring to retrench at the expense of any group is far from a pleasant duty.

However, from the outset you have demonstrated your entire fairness to both sides of the question, and, while your conclusions may not be the same as ours would be, I wanted you to know that we are not unmindful of your courtesies.

It is also desired to express our appreciation for the work of Mr. Bingham W. Mathias. Congress having made no provision for help for the committee, the secretarial work was placed in the hands of Mr. Mathias, in addition to his usual duties. As you are aware, he has discharged these duties industriously and intelligently and has been most helpful to our organization in many details that otherwise might have had to be carried to the committee itself. While there may be a disagreement between us as to the recommendations the committee may bring forward, I feel that courtesy requires this letter to you and your colleagues.

Cordially yours,

THOMAS KIRBY, National Legislative Chairman.

The committee is very much pleased to have such an expression from one of the organizations appearing before it. The committee has tried to be fair in its dealings with this subject, and has opened the door to everyone representing an organization who cared to make suggestions to the committee. We assumed that those coming were practically invited to give the committee the benefit of their views, and we felt that everyone had the right to come. We have even permitted one organization to come, or one witness to come who is a little bit doubtful, or rather he left some doubt in the minds

of the committee whether he believed in our form of Government. I am not extolling the committee, but I am simply saying that we are endeavoring to hear everybody.

Now, with the permission of the committee, we will hear Colonel Means to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock, and the committee now stands adjourned until that hour. I want also to express my appreciation now, lest we forget it, for the very valuable assistance rendered the committee by those details from the Veterans' Administration, Treasury Department, Agriculture Department, and Government Printing Office. They have performed a very fine service, and we express our gratitude to them.

(Whereupon the committee adjourned at 10 o'clock a. m., to meet at 10 o'clock a. m. Saturday, February 4, 1933, in room 335, Senate Office Building.)

VETERANS' AFFAIRS

JOINT CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS, Saturday, February 4, 1933. Pursuant to adjournment Friday, February 3, 1933, the committee met in room 335, Senate Office Building, at 10.05 a. m. John McDuffie, chairman, Representative from Alabama, presided.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. Mr. Chairman, the witness, E. E. Almond, who represented the Fraternal League of America when he was before our committee on the 2d day of February, made complaint that there was a denial of death compensation benefits in certain cases where the disability is the result of willful misconduct. I have a statement that has been forwarded to me by the Veterans' Administration, which is explanatory of the reason why there was not a payment made to the widow because under the law it is not permissible, and I would like to incorporate this statement in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; we will be very glad to have it. It should come near the testimony of the witness who made the complaint. Mr. CHIPERFIELD. Maybe Mr. Mathias in making up the record can get the letter near that testimony.1

The CHAIRMAN. I don't just now recall which witness that was. Mr. CHIPERFIELD. That was the colored witness, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Senator Means, the committee was informed that you had a program or some suggestions to make involving economies that might be effected by legislation or by a change in administration, and the committee is very glad to have such suggestions. If you will proceed we will be glad to hear you.

STATEMENT OF COL. RICE W. MEANS, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Colonel MEANS. These hearings are drawing to a close. The thoughts of the committee no doubt are upon the report that must be made pursuant to the mandates of the resolution creating the committee. Even at the risk of the thought that I am presumptuous, I propose, if the committee is willing to listen, to specifically outline what I believe that report should contain.

There appeared before the committee certain gentlemen representing business organizations. We look upon the National Chamber of Commerce as the "daddy" of them all. We recognize its power and its influence, the stability of the organization. Notwithstanding

1 See letter on p. 1022.

the far-reaching activities of this organization in regard to the subject now under consideration by this committee, the only appearance of that strong body before this committee was by a letter from its president, Mr. Harriman, presented and read to this committee by some official of the chamber. That letter is taken from and is almost identical with the report issued by the chamber of commerce, dated October, 1932. It is a report of the committee on Federal expenditures. Just five months prior to the report mentioned, the same committee, the committee on Federal expenditures of the National Chamber of Commerce, issued a report. It is of date May, 1932I repeat, just five months prior to the report from which the letter which was read to this committee was taken.

This May report is quite interesting. It, of course, outlines the history of pensions as they understand this history. I have no particular quarrel with it. It is incomplete and in some respects inaccurate, yet we are interested in the recommendations or conclusions as evidenced by that report because that report gives the very basis of the thought of the National Chamber of Commerce. I read from the recommendations:

* * * In view of the magnitude of the expenditures for this purpose, it would be derelict in its duty if it did not call attention to the cost of the present military grants and aids and also to the dangers from the fiscal standpoint of mere drifting without guide or compass. The committee is of the opinion that some definite policy should be adopted and this should be fitted into a relatively long-time fiscal program. Legislation affecting veterans has been on a piecemeal basis. The statutes are lacking in system and symmetry. Administration is difficult and expensive. The statutes contain many inequalities, both as between ex-soldiers of different wars and as between those of the same war.

With that I am in agreement.

Now, as of interest to the committee, it says:

In the meantime, it is believed that wide publicity should be given to the existing provisions of the laws, present costs, and the cost of any proposals to increase existing rates, to broaden the application of present statutes, or to add new forms of relief. Official reports should be issued in nontechnical language which the public can readily understand. Expenditure statements prepared in such a way as to be easily intelligible to all interested should be published frequently. If the public is thoroughly informed regarding the magnitude of the present cost of caring for the veterans and of the benefits now bestowed, extravagant demands in the future may be more carefully weighed and legislative policies tempered with both reasonableness and justice.

In other words, they outline the system of propaganda that has been broadcast across this Nation. But I want the committee to bear in mind that the purpose of the issuance of the propaganda was not the problem of cost; it was solely with the thought of the future. They are concerned, as many people are, because they have been told that the mounting costs, the future of this thing, will bankrupt the Government. That seems to be uppermost in the minds of many people.

Senator BROOKHART. You are familiar with the later figures that General Hines submitted

Colonel MEANS. I am. I am going to reach that as I go along. Senator BROOKHART. The negligible increase

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Senator