and 900 with 300l., and there would then be an excess beyond the present amount of tithe and glebe of 30,000l. a-year. What, then would become of the surplus ? When he mentioned these amounts of income, he should add, that even the lowest, those who had an income of 120l. or 100l., were subject to a deduction of 2 per cent.-for what reason he could not tell. The higher incomes were taxed under the Church Temporalities Bill; but now taxation was enforced down to the very zero of reduction. Look next, said lord Stanley, at the average number of Protestants in each benefice. The number of Protestants, connected with the established church in Ireland, was 852,000. If the benefices were taken at 1,250, the average number of Protestants in each would be 700; the extent of each benefice would be about 10,000 acres, or within a fraction of fifteen square miles; the average income of each clergyman from tithe and glebe would be about 350l. Take the benefices at 1,385, the average number of Protestants in each would be 615; the extent of each benefice would be 8,664 acres, or between thirteen and fourteen square miles, and the average income of the clergyman about 317. from tithe and glebe. Ministers always referred to a few selected cases of small Protestant congregations, the clergyman of which enjoyed a considerable income. Even if these exceptions existed, it would be a reason for better distribution, but could never be a reason for positive diminution, because the cases were far more abundant in which Protestant clergymen, having the charge of a large Protestant population, were In the miserably underpaid. benefice of Innis, in the diocese of Clogher, the number of Protestants was 3,756; its extent was twenty-one miles by three; the duty was performed by four clergymen, in one church, and two chapels, and the joint income of all of them, making no allowance for the expense of collection, was only 500l. The united parishes of Clanguish and Killoe contained 1,518 Protestants, in a territory sixteen miles by eleven; it had three clergymen, and their united incomes were 9961. The benefice of Granard consisted of five parishes, containing 2,231 Protestants; the duty was done by six clergymen, and the whole income was 1,360l. In the diocese of Meath, was the benefice of Fircal, twenty-two miles long, and varying in breadth from five to seven miles, containing a Protestant population of 1,289 per sons. were The benefice contained six parishes; the duty was done by six clergymen; and their joint incomes amounted to 3851. a-year. In the arch-diocese of Armagh was the benefice of Termonnaguish, containing 1,722 Protestants. Its extent was eleven miles by ten; it had three clergymen and two chapels, and its revenues 8007. In the diocese of Derry, was the benefice of Ardstraw, fifteen miles long by ten broad, and containing no fewer than 3,658 ProThere were two clergytestants. men, one church, and two chapels, and the revenue was 1,0947. Ireland was covered with examples of the same kind-places in which no reasonable man could deny that the Protestant clergymen were underpaid, where there was glaring and acknowledged deficiency of income requiring to be a supplied, and which, when supplied by a proper distribution of the ecclesiastical revenues, would put an end to every idea of a surplus. In so far as the bill now before the house went to provide for the collection of the income of the church, he saw no reason to differ from it. He thought it most expedient that it should not be collected by the clergymen themselves, and that a sacrifice might fairly be made in order to have it collected by the commissioners of land revenue. He would have no objection, therefore, that, besides the general reduction of twentyfive per cent., there should be a farther deduction of two and ahalf per cent. as an allowance to these commissioners for the expense of collection. But there was one provision, of the very first importance, which had been dropped out of this bill, he did not know why-the provision for allowing the rent-charge to be redeemed. This was a matter of most vital importance for securing a settlement of the question. It had formed a prominent part of the bill introduced by lord Grey's government; and lord Wellesley, as lord-lieutenant, had expressed a strong opinion that this redemption was the chief thing to be aimed at. He proposed, therefore, to introduce provisions for the redemption of the rent charge, into which the tithe was to be commuted. He was perfectly aware that this was a matter attended with consider able difficulty, but that a thing was difficult was no reason why it should not be done. Looking at the difference in the value of land in the northern and southern parts of Ireland, and the difference between an investment in public securities, and an investment in land, whether in the north or the south, he was satisfied that no fixed amount could be prescribed as the standard of redemption. No fixed number of years' purchase could be selected without doing injustice to the incumbent in some cases, and to the landlord in others. Supposing a rent-charge of seventy-two and a-half per cent., to be bought at twenty years' purchase, the price might be invested in many parts of Ireland, in lands which would yield an equivalent return; but the same investment, in other parts of the Island, would yield the incumbent only forty-nine or fifty per cent. instead of seventy-two. His proposition would be, to give the ecclesiastical commissioners power to enter into an agreement with the landlord, whether for land or money, imposing no restriction with regard to a maximum or minimum, enabling them to make an exchange, partly, it might be, for land, and partly for money, and to carry the transaction into effect, either immediately, by an arrangement formed to meet existing circumstances, or contingently on the death of the present incumbent; for in no event ought the existing incumbent to be exposed even to the risk of obtaining less than the seventy-two and a half per cent. Lord Stanley farther urged, that one of the greatest faults of the government bill was the enormous and irresponsible power which it conferred on the officers of government. The lord-lieutenant, indeed, had not much to do; but the secretary of state, and the chief commissioners of land revenues, had immense power. The latter was authorised to order revision of compositions, and to recommend applotments; and if any person were behind-hand in the payment of his tithes, he had the monstrous power of punishing him, at his good will and pleasure, by charging interest, or of indulging him by charging none. What room for plotting and favouritism was here! Such a power, placed as it ultimately would be, in the hands of a cabinet minister, would become a mere engine for political purposes. Through the secretary of state, again, the limits of benefices were to be fixed, the spiritual superintendence of flocks to be provided for, and the amount of remuneration to be settled. That functionary was, in fact, to have entire and absolute control over the property, duty, and labour of every minister of the established church. Would the house entrust the absolute control over the spiritual interests of the Protestants of Ireland to any secretary of state under any government? This power, again, was conferred for a very plain purpose, viz., that the government might have the means of creating that surplus which they could not find, but which they were determined to have, even though churches were tumbling down, and benefices, for want of funds, were not attended to. The government plan was this that 129 benefices should have an income not exceeding 1007.; that there should be 670 not exceeding 2001.; 209 not exceeding 300l.; 188 not exceeding 400l.; and fifty-four at 500l. No clergyman was to receive more than 500l., except in towns. Now he objected to such a rate being laid down, as that no clergyman in a country parish, under any circum stances, should receive more than 500l. it was not consistent with : now pro any part of our laws in church or state; it did not harmonise with any part of our policy, civil or ecclesiastical. The incomes of the bishops, which were fixed at from 4,000l. to 6,000l., were to remain ; and yet between these and the next rank of parochial clergy, there was to be no instance of a stipend exceeding 500l. This left a gap destructive of the whole order and harmony of the system, and introduced a principle of equalisation unjust in itself, inconsistent in its application, and mischievous in its operation. Even where the clergy were reduced in number in the manner posed, the revenues would only afford a minimum of 1781. and a maximum of 578l. These incomes would leave no surplus; government was compelled to create one by reducing them in this mean and pitiful manner. It was assumed that the surplus thus created would be 97,000l.; but even this was not to be applied to the purposes of local religious education. To that purpose, indeed, 50,000l. was to be devoted, but the remaining 47,000l. was to go to the consolidated fund. The measure went farther. It gave to the secretary of state, acting through his creatures and puppets in the ecclesiastical committee, a power of reducing still farther the incomes of the clergy, till a surplus was created for state purposes, which would be effected by assigning to every clergyman the minimum allowed by law. Neither was it rendered imperative to apply the glebes to ecclesiastical purposes. These were valued at 86,500l. ayear; it was provided carefully, that not more than about 30,000l. of this sum should be applied to such purposes, but even this was not necessary to be so applied. How was the rest of the sum to be disposed of? The commissioners of land revenue were to have the power of dealing with this property, of letting it out on any terms, and of demising it for any period. Was any portion of it to be given for the support of the Catholic clergy? Was the property of glebe lands, taken from the church of England, to be given to the church of Rome? At all events, the secretary of state had the power of altogether refusing glebes, and of appointing no curates in any place; he had the power of decreasing the incomes of the benefices; he had a power of creating a surplus of 330,000l.; and this sum, with a reservation of 50,000l. for the purposes of education, was to be handed over to the consolidated fund for the use of the state. This was a principle to which he never would consent. It was dangerous in itself; it held out a temptation to political dishonesty and parliamentary corruption, and deprived the church of its liberty, by making it dependent on the will of the secretary of state. Government, after making itself the trustee of the church, was thus to become its residuary legatee; holding a contingent surplus for every man to draw upon, who might wish to repeal a tax or reduce a burden. The chancellor of the exchequer would no longer be able to say to the men of the pressure-from-without, clamouring, for instance, that the tax on newspapers should be taken off, that he had no surplus, and could not afford it. Their answer would be, you have given the clergy too much; you have lavishly and extravagantly given them the maximum. The Act of Parliament allows you to give them the minimum; that is sufficient for these bloated parsons. You will thereby have a surplus of nearly 200,000l. Put that into your budget, and take off the stamps. But it was said, that the house was tied down by its former resolution. Tied down to what? Not to create a surplus at all risks. The plain meaning of the resolu tion, so unfortunately adopted in 1835, was, that parliament was pledged to make due provision for all the wants of the Protestant establishment in Ireland, before a single shilling of its revenues could be applied to any other purpose. It was admitted that the perpetuity fund was bankrupt; it was demonstrated, that, from the nature of the demands upon it, it would be getting deeper and deeper into debt every year: and the ecclesiastical commissioners had already reported, that numerous applications had been made to them for Protestant accommodation; and that, too, by persons who were willing to contribute part of the expenses, but which the commissioners could not concede, however urgent were the cases, because they had no available funds. Were then the funds still left to the church sufficient, or more than sufficient for its wants? Government stated the tithes at 353,000l., glebes at 86,000l., ministers' money at 10,000l., making in all 459,000l. What sum would this give to the Irish clergy, supposing they were all to be made alike? As the number of benefices was 1,385, the average income would be 3007. Was any man prepared to assert, that, for a gentleman of education and high attainments, and having likewise a family to maintain, this was an absurd and extravagant allowance? Was it not rather the very minimum to which they could go in the scale of remuneration. The clergyman had not only to maintain his family, to assist others, and to live as became a gentleman in his station; but he had likewise to look to some provision for those whom he was to leave behind him; and how would any gentleman feel, if he were similarly circumstanced, particularly in a large town, with no greater an allowance than 300l. a-year. Even this moderate sum could not be given, unless all were dealt with alike; and that principle of equality was one which it was impossible to maintain. Assuming that government did not mean to object to there being a clergyman at every place of divine worship connected with the established church, the average income would be under S007. ; and if they were limited to the number of benefices, they would rise very little above it. But besides the churches and chapels already existing, there were many new ones in progress ; and when each of them was provided with a clergyman, the average income would be greatly lower. Yet by the provisions of the present measure, 1,009 clergymen were to do duty on incomes of less than 300l., of whom 793 were to have incomes of less than 2007., while 129 others were to be starved down to 1207. But they were farther told, that the measure, however cruel, unjust, and impolitic it might be, would be final. What rational man believed that? Had there been a single petition praying for it as a final measure? And how many had been brought in from the supporters of Government, declaring that there would be no settlement, no peace, no tranquillity, without a final and total abolition of tithes. That was the object distinctly avowed by the majority of those who supported government in this very proposal; and whom it was in vain to attempt to satisfy, while any portion of their demands remained unconceded. But what was more, the arrangement proposed under this measure, which was to be so final and satisfactory, was to cease at the expiration of seven years, when they would be brought back to the same state in which they were at present. Under the provision of the bill, too, the reduction of the two-and-a-half per cent., for the expenses of collection, was to be permanent; but the assistance given by the commissioners of land-revenue was to terminate in seven years; and it was remarkable, that this provision had been introduced since the bill of last year. Under that bill it was provided, that the rentcharges should be conveyed to these commissioners, under the control of the crown. The present measure vested the rent-charges in his Majesty, for the purposes therein. mentioned; but it was provided, that the enactment, in regard to the rent-charges, should continue till November 1843, and afterwards, until parliament should otherwise direct. And this was to be the final measure, containing, as it did, a special provision that, at the end of seven years, parliament should be invited to reconsider the arrangement. His lordship then stated his own views of what should be done, and the leading provisions of the measure which he would propose, for the redemption of the rentcharge, and a better distribution of the revenues of the church, in order to remove glaring inequalities and abuses. The first thing |