Senator HOEY. Our information was that this was a very extensive thing that the Comptroller would do.

Mr. MERIAM. Yes, sir; it is.

Senator HOEY. It would take a large force and a great deal of time. Mr. MERIAM. Yes, sir.

Senator HOEY. And, I was thinking about in the event this measure would be passed, there ought to be some way to correlate it so it would not be a duplication of getting the same facts.

Mr. MERIAM. There is a provision in this bill. The Commission is authorized to secure directly from any executive department, bureau or agency, board, commission, and so forth, estimates and statistics for the purposes of this act.

Senator HOEY. We ought to be able to correlate it so it would not be just duplication of effort.

Mr. MERIAM. I do not think any competent director of a Commission of this kind would waste time and effort duplicating something somebody else has done. He is going to be in a terrific drive, and there will be great pressure on him to get this thing done in 2 years. He is going to call on departments and other agencies for everything that they can possibly supply.

I would not be disturbed about a Commission of this kind wasting money by duplicating. I have had a little experience with certain commissions, and I know the pressure you are under in your anxiety to get whatever you can from other agencies. If you can judge from our own experience with the General Accounting Office during the study for Senator Byrd's committees, the General Accounting Office was highly cooperative.

Senator FERGUSON. What about the agencies? Were they cooperative?

Mr. MERIAM. Well

Senator FERGUSON. I notice you recommend that they do not use agency personnel.

Mr. MERIAM. No, sir. I would not recommend that you do that. A fellow studying his own agency or studying the agency of one of his friends it is a very embarrassing situation. So, I would have as independent a personnel on this staff as I could possibly get.

Senator FERGUSON. In reply to your other question that this office was really an arm of the President, I notice a letterhead here reads this way: "Executive Office of the President, Bureau of the Budget." That indicates that they are really part of the President's office. Mr. MERIAM. They are part of the President's office.

Senator FERGUSON. Just the same as his secretary or staff would be. Mr. MERIAM. Yes. Anytime there becomes an issue-for instance, one of your committees calls on the Bureau of the Budget for information that represents a conflict between the Executive and Congress the loyalty of the Budget and their official responsibility is to the President and not to the Congressional committee.

In the early hearings on the Budget, the literature on the subject, there was a good deal said with respect to the extent to which the Budget Bureau would be of service to Congress, and from what I have

been told and from what I have observed, there are strict limits to that.

The CHAIRMAN. That is limited by seeking the same objective.

Mr. MERIAM. But, if the objectives are crosswise, the loyalty of the Budget and the duty of the Budget is to the President.

Senator LODGE. Mr. Chairman, may I just make one observation? I very much appreciate Mr. Meriam's remarks about this bill. He is an eminent authority, and he speaks for an institution that we all respect.

Í have been interested to get his offhand estimate that the cost of this proposition would be somewhere a little under a million dollars. I realize that is a rough figure.

Mr. MERIAM. That is on the assumption that you are not attempting to go into detail into the methods of the departments. Senator LODGE. All the departments?

Mr. MERIAM. All the departments. If you go into that now, I would not want to tell you what your costs would be, because there are so many methods and so much work there.

The CHAIRMAN. The amount of the appropriation which the Commission would receive would probably preclude much duplicating of effort.

Senator LODGE. I simply want to point out that the Temporary National Economic Committee that was created when I was here in the Senate spent more than a million dollars.

The CHAIRMAN. They did?

Senator LODGE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That war investigating committee has had $900,000 appropriated now. When they get this $150,000, it makes about $900,000.

Mr. MERIAM. One other point, Senator Lodge. That is not including what the departments will spend. We mentioned calling on the Comptroller General for these figures. He gives you those; you do not pay him out of this appropriation.

Senator LODGE. That would not be paid out of this.

Mr. MERIAM. No, sir.

Senator LODGE. Then, Mr. Meriam has made some suggestions regarding perfecting this bill, particularly as regards the personnel that they are going to use, and also broadening the latitude of the Commission in deciding which investigation it shall undertake. Those are your two principal recommendations?

Senator FERGUSON. Plus the fact that he would not have members of the executive branch on the Commission.

Mr. MERIAM. Would not have them on the Commission.
Senator LODGE. I meant to cover that.

Just let me say that I think those suggestions strengthen the bill and improve it as far as I am concerned. I am glad to accept them. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any further suggestions, Senator Lodge?

Senator LODGE. NO.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know anyone who still desires to be heard on this matter?

Senator LODGE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I think the ground has been pretty well covered today.

Senator LODGE. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. And, the committee should have the reports made up, and will then make a decision on what action is to be taken. It will take a little time to do that because the Printing Office is crowded, as we well know.

Senator LODGE. Well, I feel that the argument for this proposition can be stated in 1 day. Of course, if you would start giving specific instances, you would sit from now until doomsday, but I do think. the argument for it has been made, and I certainly appreciate the attention and treatment I have received very much.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will adjourn.

(Whereupon, at 4:45 p. m., the committee adjourned.)

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