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contemplate the possibility of putting the United States Military Academy and the National Academy under an Office of Education instead of in the War and Navy Departments, respectively.

So I would like to say, sir, that I am not one of those persons who believe that it is possible to concentrate in the United States Office of Education or in any major division of education in the Government all of the so-called educational functions.

Nevertheless, I think it is equally important, perhaps, that there should be at the Cabinet level an individual who is able to carry on a great deal in the way of correlation of these educational activities. These educational activities, in a sense, are all over the lot here in Washington, D. C., and while it may not be possible to subtract them from their respective agencies and concentrate them in any one place, it is possible to engage in a great deal more correlation of educational effort here in Washington than has so far proved to be the case. For example, I have long urged the Federal Government to set up a Federal council of education, composed of the representatives of those divisions of Government here in Washington which have educational functions and who might, therefore, sit around the table with a Cabinet officer who had the responsibility for education and do a great deal in the way of correlating activities that are of an educational nature here at the Federal level.

I cannot refrain, I think, from pointing out the fact that at the level of higher education, particularly, there must be an intimate relationship between education on the one hand and medicine and all the other forms of therapeutic education on the other. It is perfectly well known, of course, that doctors are prepared in medical schools located in institutions of higher education, and that the individuals who are in charge of these respective universities must be prepared to undertake activities in the field of medical education the same as they are prepared to undertake them in any other form of higher education. The relationship, therefore, at this level seems to me to be so clear that it needs certainly no further elaboration.

Mr. Zook. I think that you know that I am president of the American Council on Education, which is our attempt here in the United States to federate the activities of various educational organizations and institutions and school systems of the country.

As I have indicated here on the first sheet of this statement, the council is now composed of 72 national educational organizations, and almost every important educational association is a member of the council. There are 59 associate member organizations and 975 institutions of higher education and school systems that are members of the council; total 1,106.

May I further qualify myself by saving that during the year 1933-34 I served as United States Commissioner of Education and even prior to that time for a period of 5 years, 1920-25, I was head of the Division of Higher Education in the United States Bureau of Education, as it was then called.

The American Council on Education operates, so far as matters of this kind are concerned largely through what is called the problems and policy committee, which is a committee that we have set up composed we believe of extremely important persons in the field of education, and so the statements which are contained in the document that I have presented are statements which have been adopted by that committee.

For example, on page 2 of my statement you will note that on October 10 and 11, 1946, the bill then in Congress, S. 2503, creating a Department of Health, Education, and Security, resulted in favorable action by that committee. The statement then goes on to say that it is important that the expanding relationships of the Federal Government to education through legislation already enacted or contemplated make it desirable to give additional recognition to education in the

Federal Government. Secondly, that there now exists a greater need for coordination of educational activities carried on by the Federal Government. Therefore, the committee recommended enactment of the bill with the provisions but that the name of the Department be changed to Department of Education, Health, and Security, and further that nothing in the bill should extend the control of the Federal Government over local school systems.

I would say that this was not merely committee action, because in January of 1947, only a few months thereafter, we had a meeting of the representatives of the 65 constituent organizations that belong to the council. At that time by a vote of 38 to 6, with 4 individuals present not voting, this resolution which I have just read to you was adopted by the representatives of the organizations assembled.

In the same year, the council joined with the National Welfare Assembly in the appointment of a joint committee to consider this problem still further. You will find in my statement the conclusions of this joint committee appointed by the two organizations in favor of a Department of Health, Education, and Security. I will not read those. They are all in the same direction of departmental status for education.

Two years later, namely, the past year, the problems and policies committee again reaffirmed its stand with regard to the matter of departmental status of education by passing the following motion. I think that I would like to read this, if you do not mind, at the bottom of page 4 of my statement:

It was voted that in order to increase the autonomy and effectiveness of education at the Federal level, the committee reaffirms its action of 1946—in support of departmental status for education at the Federal level; that further study be given to the component parts, in addition to education, of the proposed Department, including the desirability of including science in a Department of Health, Education, and Science; that the Office of United States Commissioner of Education be abolished, and there be an Assistant Secretary of Education under the general supervision of the Secretary of the proposed Department; and that there be established a national advisory committee of leading citizens to advise the Assistant Secretary of Education on matters of general policy, and that there be formed under the chairmanship of the Assistant Secretary of Education a Federal Council of Education, composed of representatives of the various Federal agencies having responsibilities in the field of education.

I have read that, Mr. Chairman, in order to bring out the fact that the last time that this committee considered this matter it was of course not wholly in line with the present proposal. This was of course because the present proposal was not before the committee at that time. So I think it would be fair to say that the committee would prefer a Department of Health, Education and Science, rather than the present proposal.

The CHAIRMAN. What difference would that make in the name? You are reversing the order of reference to the three constituents of the Department.

Mr. Zooк. I have not assumed that it would make any real difference to us as far as health and education is concerned, but it does of course omit security.

The CHAIRMAN. It was proposed, or rather in the Reorganization Plan No. 1 it was called a Department of Welfare, and some opposition was expressed, I am sure by the medical profession and also possibly, but I don't recall definitely, but possibly by members of the educational professions, that it tended to subordinate these to welfare considerations.

My question is, if you are going to name it Department of Health, Education and Security, or Security, Health and Education, or vice versa, I just wondered if there is any actual real significance in the arrangement of the constituent names?

Mr. Zook. You may remember that last year I testified in favor of the bill for a Department of Welfare. Of course, I probably brought out the fact that we did not like that name quite so well as the longer name of Education, Health and Security, which we believe has the advantage of actually identifying the chief component parts of such a department.

Of course, we have quite definitely come to the conclusion that education is such an important part of the Nation's activities, even on the national level, that it now deserves to have some representation through an officer that is a member of the President's Cabinet. We have not taken the position, on the other hand, that it should be a full fledged Department of Education for the simple reason that we regard education as being primarily a State and local matter, and the Federal Government's interests in education are, therefore I don't know that I would like to use the term "secondary"--not primary in the sense that State and local authorities govern educational matters.

However, I would like to point out that the National interest in education has been constantly increasing during the past 25 years, so that education now plays a part in the national situation not only in peace but particularly in war, that was hardly conceived of only a short time ago. Hence there is much more reason for added recognition now than there was 25 years ago.

May I go back to my own personal experience in connection with this? At the time that I was Commissioner of Education in 1933–34, the then Bureau of Education was in the Department of the Interior. I have often said that during that year I felt very lonesome for the simple reason that there was not in the Department of Interior any other activity unless one included the Bureau of Indian Affairs, that seemed to have any relationships to education to amount to anything. I personally was very glad to see the Bureau of Education transferred to the new independent agency that was created in 1939, because that seemed to me to be a distinct step forward inasmuch as it was related particularly to health and a number of other activities that were closely related to education.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, did you think the educational program and functions of the Government fared better when it was in the Department of the Interior than it has fared since?

Mr. Zook. I think it has fared very much better since it has been in the Agency, the Federal Security Agency.

The CHAIRMAN. Why do you think that its having representation in the Cabinet in the Department of Interior did not give the same voice or prestige that it would have under some other department?

Mr. Zook. For the simple reason that as I said practically all of the activities of the Department of the Interior were noneducational in character, and the person who was appointed as Secretary of the Interior, even though in some instances he was an educator as was the case with Dr. Wilbur, inevitably could not take any substantial amount of interest in the Bureau of Education.

The CHAIRMAN. What other functions then of these three agencies combined other than the education division of it are education? You

said that there are no other educational functions in the Department of the Interior aside from the Commissioner of Education and the Office of Education now. What other functions in the present agency

have to do with education?

Mr. Zook. The closest relation of course is with the health situation. I would not need to emphasize the fact that in the schools there is the necessity of the closest relationship between individuals who are concerned with health of pupils and students, and the educational process.

Secondly, primarily at the level of university and higher education, you of course have in the medical schools the preparation of not only all persons who are connected with health, but doctors as well, and all kinds of medical research. So that both on the level in the schools and at the higher level there is an intimate relationship between health on the one hand and education on the other. I would always be very sorry to see any separation of health and education, and I am speaking now purely from the point of view of education. I do not know what the health people might have to say about it.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that there would be a larger combination or there is a larger combination of related interest in this new department as proposed than there would be if you just took health or education and placed it in some other department of the Goverunent having Cabinet status?

Mr. Zook. That is exactly my point of view.
The CHAIRMAN. That is what you mean.

Mr. Zook. That is right. I do not know that I want to make any further comments here, but simply to say this: This matter has been before the Congress now for nearly 25 years. I can remember just as well as can be when it was first proposed by President Harding in connection with a so-called Department of Welfare, and the matter has been under discussion one way or another ever since that time.

If I may be pardoned to say so, it seems to me that it is about time for us to take some fairly definite action with regard to this matter. I do not mean to say by that that anything that is done today or this year will necessarily stand indefinitely, and in fact I would not expect it to be so, but it does seem to me as if we have arrived at a time when we ought to take another step forward. I am speaking from the point of view of education now. I regard the step which put education into the Social Security Agency as a distinct step forward so far as education was concerned. Now I would think that it was quite desirable that it be given an opportunity to be on a departmental status again, and I would think that that would be another distinct step forward. Whether or not we should ever have a Department of Education as such, I do not know. During the past 20 years I have been opposed to anything that would be called a separate Department of Education for the simple reason that it has never seemed to me as if education warranted that at the Federal level. Even yet, although I think education has increased greatly in importance at the Federal level, I am not even yet in favor of a Federal Department of Education. But I do think that it is desirable that it be placed alongside of those agencies and organizations that are related to it and that it be given a better status than it has at the present time.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Zook, and I want to say that I think that you have made a very fine statement from the point of view of favoring this proposal.

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Mr. Zook. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. The next witness is Mr. Campbell. You may proceed, Mr. Campbell.


Mr. CAMPBELL. My name is Wallace J. Campbell. I serve as director of the Washington office of the Cooperative League of the U. S. A.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the Cooperative League of the U. S. A.? We have so many organizations. Could you tell us briefly what it is? Mr. CAMPBELL. It is the national federation of the consumer purchasing and service cooperatives. It is made up of farm cooperatives, petroleum, distribution, insurance, food distribution, housing, hospitals, and medical care.

The CHAIRMAN. I just wanted to get something in the record. Just a name sometimes does not sufficiently inform us of what an organization is.

Mr. CAMPBELL. We have 1,750,000 member families throughout the United States, members in practically every State in the Union.

The members of our organization are keenly interested in civic matters and the public interest in general. We have an obvious interest in Reorganization Plan No. 27 which would create a Department of Health, Education, and Security.

Our executive secretary, Jerry Voorhis, former Congressman from California, whom you have probably known for many years, testified before the House Committee on Expenditures; he was unable to appear today, and he asked me to appear instead; he pointed out that (a) the creation of a Department of Health, Education, and Security would be in the interest of orderly government in that it would coordinate and strengthen the agencies involved and (b) that it would be an integral part of the over-all Hoover Commission plan for Government reorganization and consequent economy.

Speaking for our organization, Mr. Voorhis pointed out that creation of such a Department would lift to department status the functions involved and would thereby give greater prestige, recognition, and importance to the day-to-day problems which affect the lives of all American citizens.

During the past few years there have been proposals for the creation of separate departments of health and of education. Reorganization Plan No. 27 represents a happy compromise, for it moves those agencies, together with the Federal Security Agency, into a position of Cabinet status while preserving the professional integrity of the representative units.

Every President of the United States for the last 30 years has recommended, in substance, the creation of a department similar to the proposed Department of Health, Education, and Security. This is not a new move. The plan itself has been worked over carefully. Substantial changes have been made since a similar plan was proposed a year ago. Other witnesses have probably gone into that in greater detail.

We feel that an excellent adjustment of professional and consumer or public interest has been worked out by the retention of the offices

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