Our views on the amount of increase needed at this time coincide with those that feel that the lower paid employees should also receive increases justified by the most recent data which includes consideration of the very latest salary scales in industry. We need to retain the lower graded people. Many of them are more youthful and are completing training for future service. However, the good judgment of your committee is most highly respected by all in our organization and our willingness to accept your decision on the amount of the in

crease is assured. You have sufficient reliable data and we know that your analysis will be correct and in the best interest of everyone.

We feel it most important that you specifically include ASCS county office employees in any pay legislation that you approve. All our duties evolve either from congressional action or U.S. Department of Agriculture directive. Sometimes, in the past, we were not recognized as having Federal functions. I think, in our earlier appearances, we have established to the satisfaction of this distinguished committee that all our duties are Federal-not State or county-in administering the farm programs in the field that have been provided for by the Congress and the U.S. Department of Agriculture. If you do not specifically include us in the legislation that you approve, you will be making our ASCS offices not only subject to unfair competition from business and industry but also our sister agencies of government. During the years prior to the time this committee saw fit to provide that our people be included under the civil service retirement program, it has been estimated that over 40,000 people who had been employed and trained by our offices had moved to other government employment. Many more had left to go into other work. Unless we are included in your action we will again face this type of employee loss. Your farm programs provide a service to agriculture of which we feel you are proud. We hope you will help us retain our trained people to continue to give good service.

Our desire is that this committee will favorably consider a provision that will treat ASCS people the same as other Government employees. In the event your committee approves any pay raise for Federal employees we beg you to include a section that provides:

The rates of compensation of persons employed by the county committees established pursuant to section 8(b) of the Soil Conservation and Domestic Allotment Act (16 U.S.C. 590H (b)) shall be increased by amounts equal as nearly as practicable to the increase provided by this act for corresponding rates of compensation in the appropriate schedule or scale of pay.

We are asking that we be given the same consideration that you were nice enough to give us when enacting Public Law 86-568 and the 1962 Salary Reform Act.

I wish again to express our appreciation for the courtesies you have shown us and the opportunity of appearing before this committee to explain the position of our organization on this proposed legislation. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Jones.

Mr. Clyde R. Payne is our next witness.

Mr. Payne is secretary-treasurer of the National Association of Agricultural Stabilization & Conservation Service County Employees. You may proceed, Mr. Payne.

STATEMENT OF CLYDE R. PAYNE, SECRETARY-TREASURER OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF AGRICULTURAL STABILIZATION & CONSERVATION SERVICE COUNTY EMPLOYEES (NASCOE)

Mr. PAYNE. I am Clyde R. Payne, Hamilton County ASCS office manager, Jasper, Fla., and secretary-treasurer of the National Association of ASCS County Employees.

The National Association of Agricultural Stabilization & Conservation Service Employees (NASCOE) is a voluntary organization of county agricultural stabilization and conservation service employees hereafter referred to as ASCS employees. Approximately 90 percent of ASCS employees are members of NASCOE. The sole purpose of this organization is to promote the welfare of its members. Each State of the United States, except Alaska and Hawaii, has a State organization of ASCS county employees and is affiliated with NĂSCOE. Each State affiliated with NASCOE has two members on the board of directors. NASCOE has national officers and an executive committee representing the six ASCS geographic areas of the United States and the past president is also on the executive committee. They are:

All officers, committeemen, and so forth, are ASCS employees with no salaried personnel but we do have, on a retainer basis, Mr. Dillard B. Lasseter, Post Office Box 381, Washington, D.C., who keeps us advised on legislative activity and assists us in legislative work.

The Agricultural Stabilization and Conservation Service employees carry out various Federal programs assigned to them by the Congress, Secretary of Agriculture, Executive orders, and so forth. The headquarters for ASCS is in the U.S. Department of Agriculture Building, Washington, D.C. There are, also, State and county ASCS offices who administer only Federal programs. County, city, or State governments have no connection with the national, State, or county level of ASCS.

ASCS employes on county level administer directly to farmers of the United States a great number of the complex USDA farm programs, such as the soil bank, agricultural conservation, marketing quotas (tobacco, cotton, wheat, peanuts, and rice), commodity credit loans, wool incentive payments, sugar, feed grain, and so forth. This is practically all the action programs of USDA.

Previously this committee has determined and the Congress agreedand we ASCS employees shall always be grateful to you-we, the ASCS employees on the county level, would have retirement, health,

and life insurance previously given to other Federal workers and you included us in your last two pay adjustment bills. Today, we are before you representing our approximately 15,000 county ASCS employees asking you to include ASCS county employees in any pay raise bill you deem advisable to submit to the Congress. We ask for no special favors in the various salary proposals you are considering. We only ask you to treat us like you do other Federal workers and from past experience we know you will do this.

We do not desire to make suggestions on the amount of upward salary adjustments for the various grades. It is realized the higher grades of employees in Government, especially in executive jobs and Members of Congress, need upward salary adjustments. The amounts, and so forth, for these people is something we are not familiar with and can make no recommendation, but we feel we can speak for the people in the lower grades of employees and particularly in county ASCS offices. These people are underpaid for the responsibilities they have and we feel upward salary adjustments are in order for them to meet the rising cost of living. We must increase salaries for these people or lose them to private industry.

We urge passage of salary adjustment legislation which takes in consideration the people in lower classifications.

The 15,000 ASCS employees thank you for your consideration and again ask you to be sure we are "in" any salary adjustment legislation you recommend.

Thank you, Senator Johnston.

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you for taking the time to present your views.

The next witness is Edward Batty, executive secretary of the Society of Federal Engineers, Scientists, and Allied Professionals.

STATEMENT OF EDWARD G. BATTY, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY, THE NATIONAL SOCIETY OF FEDERAL ENGINEERS, SCIENTISTS, AND ALLIED PROFESSIONALS; ACCOMPANIED BY JAMES W. RAFFENSPERGER, NATIONAL PRESIDENT

Mr. BATTY. Mr. Chairman, I will give you the statement and Mr. Raffensperger here will answer questions and also comment on a couple of changes in the bill.

Gentlemen, if a report of a study of this magnitude was presented to the board of directors of a large auto or electric company, it would take 8 hours minimum with extra time for questions. Since time is limited to minutes, we are listing the main points for your consideration.

This is an item of business concerning the productivity in the largest business in the world. Consulting registered professional engineers have the responsibility for productivity reports.

One, the Members of Congress should receive $5,000 more than anyone they employe or sanction the employment of. This is just good business practice.

Two, the super pay scale for engineers-scientists can be dispensed with if the "section" submitted with the prepared statement is included in this bill.

Three, the guidelines suggested for determining a professional are from Public Law 789.

Four, if this "section" is included in the bill, the responsibility will be placed on the proper professionals.

Five, middle management will share the responsibility and this will solve many problems now coming before the manpower committees. Six, the inclusion of this "section" lowers costs and increases productivity.

At this stage, you are the board of directors of the biggest business enterprise in the world and this bill is the most important bill that you have before you as it concerns productivity. Without productivity the United States would be just another backward nation.

We trust that you will give this bill the time and study needed. This was signed by Edward G. Batty, P. E.; James W. Raffensperger, P. E.; Carl Wesley Jr., P. E.; James J. Claggett, P. E.; and L. Wilson Kidd, P. E.

I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

STATEMENT OF JAMES W. RAFFENSPERGER

Mr. RAFFENSPERGER. Senator Johnston and members of the committee, we first want to thank you for inviting us in to present our views. As Mr. Batty said, we would like to submit our statement including the submitted section as the entire thing we have in mind, we submit that to you and ask that it be incorporated in the hearing.

The CHAIRMAN. They will be placed in the record at this point. (The documents referred to follows:)

STATEMENT OF THE NATIONAL SOCIETY OF FEDERAL ENGINEERS, SCIENTISTS, AND ALLIED PROFESSIONALS

As professionals, we are interested in economy in Federal spending as it effects taxes. We are a part of that segment of the public that pays the largest portion of the taxes. The professionals have made a study of the "costs" and we are submitting to you a "section" to be included in the pay schedule which if it is included will start the Federal Government on the road to getting "a dollar's worth for each dollar spent."

This is an economy measure not just a separate pay schedule.

We propose to

Let the M.D. write the prescriptions.

Let the dentist repair the teeth.

Let the attorney read the law.

Let the architect design.

Let the engineer build.

Let the bricklayer lay the brick, etc.

Many of the Federal agencies are trying to label the professionals so that fellow workers will know where to go for professional answers to the many problems, that confront Federal workers.

In order to obtain economy (the most for your money) in Federal spending, Congress should start at the roots and work up.

We trust that you will see fit to incorporate the idea in this bill.

(To be included in the bill covering the pay scale for the classified employees.) A SECTION To establish a system for the classification, compensation, and responsibility of the professionals in Federal service

SEC.

(a) As a part of this Act the United States Civil Service Commission shall establish a system for the classification, compensation, and responsibility of the professionals in Federal service, and for other purposes.

PURPOSE

(1) To strengthen the national defense and further the interests of other essential programs of the Government;

(2) Protect, maintain, and advance the preeminence of the United States in engineering, scientific, technological, and research and development endeavor in all professional categories; and

(3) Improve efficiency, productivity, and performance in the professional engineering, physical science, technological, and research and development functions of the Government by all the professionals; it is the purpose of this section to provide for the establishment, operation, and maintenance of a system for the classification, compensation, and responsibility of the related professionals and the positions in the Government service.

(b) The system for the classification and compensation of professional engineering, scientific endeavor and the related professions shall be known as the "Federal Professional Schedule" and shall be established in such manner that it will

(1) Place the Government in a more favorable position than it now occupies with respect to obtaining and retaining the quality and quantity of personnel necessary to carry out the engineering, scientific, technological, and research and development functions of the Government;

(2) Attract to, and retain, in the Government service, personnel of high caliber, ability, capacity, and potential in the professional fields;

(3) Offer maximum incentives for such personnel in the form of recognition, professional responsibility, compensation, promotion and advancement, career opportunities, prestige of service, and other employment benefits; (4) Provide flexibility in order to facilitate the full development and effective utilization by the Government of the education, training, experience, ability, and productive capacity of personnel; and

(5) With respect to such professional engineering, science and related professions, contain and apply the principle of equal pay for substantially equal work and professional responsibility by such personnel and give effect, in terms of position classification compensation, and professional standing of such personnel, to substantial differences (A) in the difficulty and importance of the work to be performed, (B) the degree of professional responsibility and professional skill to be exercised, (C) the scope and variety of the tasks involved, and (D) the education, training, experience, and other qualification reqiurements.

CONVERSION

SEC. 3. (a) There is established a basic compensation and classification system for Federal professionals subject to this Act which will be known as the Federal Professional Schedule for which the symbol shall be "FP". Basic compensation shall be paid to each employee in a position which is placed in the Federal Professional Schedule.

(b) Each position placed in the Federal Profession Schedule in the matter provided by this Act shall be allocated, effective on the date such position is so placed, to a grade of such schedule as follows:

Grade of position under the General

Schedule of the Classification Act of Grade of position under the Federal 1949: Professional Schedule:

(c) The rate of the basic salary of each employee, including any longevity step-increase which has been earned, in effect immediately prior to the date on which his position is placed in the Federal Professional Schedule and allocated to a grade of such schedule in the manner provided by this Act, shall be adjusted, effective on such date, to the nearest dollar amount in the new grade which does not result in a decrease.