Senator BOGGS. I thank you for your comments and help. Senator BAYH. Senator Randolph, do you have some questions? Senator RANDOLPH. Yes.

I have had to read your statement, Mayor Locher, rather hurriedly this morning because of other commitments, but I turn to page 13. You use the language

I have advocated that the formula for construction that is being used on the Interstate Highway System; namely, 90 percent Federal, 5 percent State and 5 percent local, be used to finance the necessary sewage facilities.

I have some familiarity with this subject, being chairman of the Subcommittee on Roads of this committee. There is no statutory provision for local participation, Mayor Locher. It is 90 percent Federal funds and 10 percent State funds.

Now, what are you talking about?

Mayor LOCHER. I am talking again about my State, Senator Randolph, which has followed a pattern of being of very little aid and assistance to the local community. They have required that the local community tax itself, place a tax upon the homeowner, for instance, as we do in Cleveland who may not own an automobile or may live miles away from a freeway, through ad valorem taxes to pay for 5 percent of the 10 percent that the State should be taking care of.

I have used the 90-5-5 because, in Ohio, it works out that the local community pays approximately 6 percent of it-or between 5 and 6and the State the balance. I think you are correct, it should be 90-10. But I am suggesting that since it is in Ohio, 95-5 that we certainly should not expect State and Federal Government alone to take care of the entire bill naturally.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mayor Locher, I was not critical. I merely wanted to clarify what your position was with reference to the Federal formula, which is actually the 90-10 and not 90-5-5.

Mayor LOCHER. Yes.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mayor Locher, you refer to a figure of $900 million as Cleveland's share of eliminating pollution without Federal assistance. Now, if we go back to the allocations of the grant-inaid funds for treatment works construction, that is the present program, the total would be approximately $6,130,000. That would be for the fiscal year 1967.

Now, taking $6 million plus the 30 percent of $900 million, or $270 million, I begin to see even for Cleveland, not Ohio, it will take 45 or 50 years to complete this job. Is this your thinking?

Mayor LOCHER. That is true. That is why, Senator Randolph, I have stated in looking at it another way, if, as the Chairman stated it is going to cost $100 billion to do the job in this country and we are providing, over a period of years I think it is, in this bill, some $6 billion. We are just almost doing it in reverse order if we are really going to get it done.

As I pointed out, in Lake Erie using the smaller of the two figures that it would take to reclaim that lake and reverse this process of debt and decay in the lake, let us assume it is only the $10 billion. That is a thousand for every man, woman, and child. It would just be as I stated, impossible, or unthinkable to handle that on some kind of local tax basis.

It seems to me we have to face up to it, that it is a national problem that we face.

Senator RANDOLPH. Yes, I thoroughly agree with you in reference to the national aspect of the problem, which must be solved by substantial assistance at the national level. I am sure that is not in disagreement with the Delaware Senator's thinking, although he has naturally and properly injected the thought of State responsibility.

Yet the magnitude, as we all agree, Mayor Locher, in this instance, is almost staggering, is it not?

Mayor LOCHER. Yes, it is.

Senator RANDOLPH. I have used the expression before but I repeat it today, that it is the responsibility of the Congress reflecting its responsiveness to not just people, because perhaps the people themselves have not yet fully realized the impact, the tragic impact, of what is happening to this country. But we must respond in this instance, I think, to what we know is expert opinion.

Those who have studied this subject matter, those who are familiar with what is happening know that the population will increase in Ohio, is that true?

Mayor LOCHER. Yes; it is.

Senator RANDOLPH. It is increasing now?

Mayor LOCHER. Yes.

Senator RANDOLPH. And your industrial growth presumably will increase. Is this so?

Mayor LOCHER. Yes. We like to think we made the most rapid growth of any State industrially in 1965.

Senator RANDOLPH. With population, with industry, with the movement of people by motorcar, with all that happens in an expanding economy, this problem does not lessen, this problem becomes more acute. Is this true?

Mayor LOCHER. Yes, obviously.

Senator RANDOLPH. I now will conclude, Senator Bayh, by asking the opinion of the mayor in further reference to his discussion of Lake Erie. His is a very informative statement in reference to this body of water, and the figures used indicate the magnitude of the job that must be done.

But I would like to come more to the point of what is actually the condition today in Lake Erie. Are you able to swim on the beaches of Lake Erie today?

Mayor LOCHER. Senator

Senator RANDOLPH. Without health hazard?

Mayor LOCHER. No; our health department must close the beaches by reason of the fact that the count, bacteria count, and so forth, is far in excess of what would be a safe condition.

Senator RANDOLPH. Now, this is for bathing.

Mayor LOCHER. That is right.

Senator RANDOLPH. If you can't bathe in water you have a real problem, haven't you, from the health standpoint, the use of that water for other purposes such as drinking water?

Mayor LOCHER. Senator, it so happens that our intakes are several miles out in the lake and we have not had a health problem up until now with regard to the water which we extract from the lake. As a

matter of fact, as I stated in my statement, we supply almost 20 percent of the State with power, fresh water, and, of course, it must be given treatment and it is.

The water that we sell, I think, is as good as any in the country. But I agree with you, if this process is not stopped eventually the pollution will reach out and be a severe health hazard all over this country. It is bound to be.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Locher, I am grateful for your comment, because I think you are representing not only Cleveland, but also the Conference of Mayors. As the urbanization of our population continues at an accelerating rate, which it is doing, the problem will increase rather than decrease. I think the most creative thinking of the Congress must be brought to bear on this problem and its solution. We have to make an attack on this problem which will be waged on all fronts.

It has to be an allout effort. I am sure that you and your fellow mayors recognize that as much assistance, Mayor Locher, as you can give to our subcommittee and to the Congress should be given.

This is not a matter of partisanship in any sense. It is not a matter of the administration's leadership, as valuable as it is in this proposal which incorporates at least in part, the administration's viewpoint. But, I think, we are at a "watershed" in the history of this country. It is one of the great turning points in our approach to this increasingly urgent problem.

And if we do not reach out and go beyond what we think is just necessary to solve the problem for fiscal 1970 or 1972 or 1973, I think we are going to be accountable, as members of Congress, to the people who someday are going to face up to the deteriorating effects on our whole body politic.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator BAYH. Does the Senator from Maryland have any questions to ask?

Senator TYDINGS. I am sorry that I was not here earlier, Mr. Chairman.

I note that the mayor referred to Senator Ribicoff's position insofar as charging for the privilege of pollution and associated himself with that position. I wonder if you have had any thoughts on the possibility of tax incentives to encourage industry to try to clean up their own pollution.

In other words, to give them some sort of incentive to put their own house in order.

Mayor LOCHER. Yes, Senator Tydings, I would be in favor of such an investment tax credit or whatever form it might take, in order to encourage industry. I am a great believer in that method of correcting blight as well. I would think that a homeowner should get the same kind of incentive just as businessmen and industry should, and I have urged that.

I believe in this instance, whether it is air pollution or water pollution, it would be proper to grant the incentive even though the industry is required to do what it ought to be doing anyway. Nevertheless, frequently the costs are so immense that I would recommend that. Senator TYDINGS. Mr. Chairman, that is all. Senator BAYH. Senator Boggs?

Senator BOGGS. Mr. Mayor, may I refer also to your comment "our experience so far leads us to believe that the river basin approach is a Federal-State approach and that little or no attention will be paid to the needs of the local governments involved."

Does that mean that you would be opposed to the river basin approach as proposed in the administration bill?

Mayor LOCHER. Mr. Chairman and Senator Boggs, no, I am not opposed to it because I believe the philosophy of the river basin bill is a very good one. I think it is the new approach which is being taken or urged upon the Congress in ever increasing ways and methods.

I referred, for instance, to the demonstration cities bill as well. It is a way to attack the entire problem, not just where the Cuyahoga River, which happens to go through Cleveland, enters Lake Erie but it starts way back at the headwaters and there is then constant surveillance over all the tributary streams and the river, itself, from the time it becomes a river until it empties into Lake Erie.

That is the kind of approach I believe we must have if we are really to extirpate or pull out all these different types of effluence that enter into any river, agricultural or industrial or whatever it might be. I am basically in favor of it but I did point out what I thought were some of the deficiencies with regard to the bill as it is now constituted.

Senator BOGGS. We have the Delaware River Basin approach, New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware, and my impression is that it is moving along very well. It is laying a pretty solid foundation. We are fortunate to have a representative from that basin authority who will appear before the committee later on today.

I was wondering if you had any specific suggestions on how the basin approach should be improved, or you can submit them later, to give attention to local needs.

Mayor LOCHER. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that there not be this requirement, for instance, that you have some type of authority because many of the streams are not necessarily involved with a number of States.

Now the Maumee River, which I believe affects and begins in Indiana, does it not, Senator, and then empties into the lake at Toledo, that immediately, I suppose, would be thought of as a principal type of demonstration because it goes through several States and it would require compacts and this, that, and the other thing,

On the other hand, the Cuyahoga River, which is much shorter and is not as well known and is only in the State of Ohio, might be a much better demonstration in that it has just virtually every type of pollutant in it. It is a highly industrialized area, it is probably more similar to the Ruhr Valley, from pickling liquors to agricultural phosphates, with oils and chemicals of all types, phenols, everything.

I think the stress on the institutional approach is perhaps too severe here for an area that does not have a compact. Yet, the city of Cleveland, since it does service most of the or some 80 percent of all the sewage that is treated in Cuyahoga County might be even a more suitable type of demonstration.

I am merely saying we should not be wedded to a type. Many areas don't have the interlocking number of States because of the location of the stream.

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Senator BOGGS. Thank you.

Senator BAYH. Mr. Mayor, do you think that to achieve our pollution abatement goals we are going to have to have a comprehensive approach, as opposed to a spot approach!

Mayor LOCHER. Yes; I do.

Senator BAYH. Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor. Your testimony has been very informative. Thank you for your contribution.

Mayor LOCHER. Thank you for hearing us out.

Senator BAYH. I would like to ask the distinguished colleague from Maryland to introduce the next witness since he comes from the great State of Maryland.

Senator TYDINGS. Mr. Tuchtan.

Mr. Chairman, we have with us a newly victorious councilman from the city of Rockville who is also the chairman of the Board of Directors of the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments which in and of itself is a tremendously responsible job.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to introduce to you and to the other members of this subcommittee Achilles Tuchtan, who is a city councilman from Rockville, Md., which is not only the county seat of Montgomery County, but one of the most progressive cities in the United States.

Without further introduction, it is my pleasure to introduce to the committee Mr. Achilles Tuchtan.

STATEMENT OF ACHILLES M. TUCHTAN, CHAIRMAN, BOARD OF DIRECTORS, ACCOMPANIED BY WALTER A. SCHEIBER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AND JOHN J. BOSLEY, DEPUTY DIRECTOR AND GENERAL COUNSEL, METROPOLITAN WASHINGTON COUNCIL OF GOVERNMENTS

Mr. TUCHTAN. Thank you, Senator. I must say it was a long day yesterday. Although victorious, I am a little tired this morning. As you all know this whole election process takes a little out of you, especially when you are spending so much time ringing doorbells and talking to people.

Senator BAYH. I suppose it is reasonable to assume that one can recuperate more rapidly if he is victorious than if he is not.

Mr. TUCHTAN. Very much so.

Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, I am Achilles M. Tuchtan, a city councilman from Rockville, Md., and also chairman of the Board of Directors of the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments in which capacity I come before the subcommittee today. I have with me Walter A. Scheiber, the Council of Governments' executive director, and John J. Bosley, its deputy director and general counsel.

I am pleased to be here today to testify on the various bills before your subcommittee concerning water pollution control and abatement. The Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments is an organization of the major local governments in the National Capital region. The District of Columbia and 12 local governments in Maryland and Virginia belong to, participate in, and financially support the activities of the council.