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service as a cadet. The proposed legislation would permit members of the Reserve components who performed active duty as appointed aviation cadets to count that service for retirement purposes under Public Law 810. A further inequity between the Regular and Reserve has resulted from ComGen Decision B-95802, April 1953, which allows cadet time prior to 1942 to be counted for Regular naval personnel, or for Reserves retiring under regular 20-year laws, but not under Public Law 810.
Until the passage of the Army-Navy Nurses Act of 1947, nurses had neither officer nor enlisted status. Therefore, the present wording of section 1332(b) of title 10, United States Code, does not permit the crediting of service performed by Reserve nurses prior to 1947. The proposed legislation would authorize crediting the nurse of the Reserve components for the same type of service for which the Regular nurse receives credit. This could be accomplished by amending section 1332, title 10, United States Code, as proposed by this bill.
I shall be glad to answer any questions with respect to the Navy sections in this legislation.
Mr. RIVERS. I notice the Ramseyer analysis of this thing, of this bill, giving us the existing law and the proposed changes that would be affected by this proposed legislation is set out here very well by Mr. Slatinshek. I notice that most of your testimony seemed to have to do with cadets and nurses.
Commander PORTER. Yes, sir; because that is about all that the Navy end of it is concerned with.
Mr. RIVERS. I see.
Commander PORTER. Now the Army and the Air Force are going to cover the National Guard time, physiotherapists, and that kind of thing
Mr. Rivers. I see. I thought you were going to carry the ball for the whole business.
Commander PORTER. No, sir. I was instructed to carry the ball for the Navy; sir.
Mr. Rivers. I see.
Mr. Rivers. The only thing that affects you in the Navy, then, is the nurses and the cadets; is that right?
Commander PORTER. That is true.
Mr. Puilbin. You count the service at the Naval Academy for purposes of retirement ?
Commander PORTER. No, sir.
Mr. PHILBIN. You don't count that at all. Why don't you count that?
Mr. Rivers. They have been trying to get that under the law for goodness knows how long.
Mr. PHILBIN. Why should that be excluded ?
Commander PORTER. It apparently has been the intent of Congress not to count that time; sir.
Mr. PHILBIN. I don't know. I have been on this committee for a long time, and I never heard such an intent expressed around here.
Mr. RIVERS. Congressman Cole, who took the atomic energy, had a bill. We had long hearings on it. The Department of Defense sent up here, under the Kilday committee, Brigadier General Maddox, Harold Maddox, if you gentlemen remember that. They didn't look with favor upon it.
Mr. Philbin. The committee never had hearings on it.
Mr. Bray. If the gentleman will yield, I don't think we ever had a discussion on it.
Mr. RIVERS. No, I don't think so. Mr. BRAY. As I recall, they didn't want to go that far. Mr. Rivers. We explored it very fully, and I don't recall just exactly what the committee did. I don't think the committee voted on it. They just held hearings. I don't know what happened. I wasn't chairman.
Mr. PHILBIN. Do you know whether the time at the Military Academy is counted for retirement ?
Commander PORTER. It is not; sir.
Mr. PHILBIN. It is not. So apparently there is no discrimination between them. Mr. RIVERS. Oh, no.
Commander PORTER. No, sir. This is just an attempt to count for the Reserves the same type of time that can now be counted for Regulars. It is an attempt to equalize the opportunities for counting this time.
Mr. PHILBIN. This bill applies only to Reserves ? Commander PORTER. Yes, sir. Mr. RIVERS. That is right. Commander PORTER. Because the Regulars can now count this time. Mr. WAMPLER. Mr. Chairman. Mr. RIVERS. Yes, sir. Mr. WAMPLER. Does this count, like the OCS-ROC programs? Are they included in such or excluded?
Commander PORTER. Well, they are not specifically excluded. They are not included.
Mr. WAMPLER. As the NROTC, being the same way, as not being included ?
Commander PORTER. That is right; yes, sir. The only two types of time we want to include here are Nurse Corps time before nurses were given commissioned status, and cadet time before they were given enlisted status.
Mr. WAMPLER. Why aren't you interested in this other being included along with that at this time?
Commander PORTER. Well, principally because we are trying to equalize between Reserves and Regulars. We are trying to correct an existing inequity, rather than add something new.
Currently, if an aviation cadet, commissioned, we will say, about 1942, before September 1942, were to be integrated into the Regular Navy, he could count that time spent as a cadet, that 3 years before 1952. But if he were to remain a Reserve officer and try to count that as a Federal service and retire under Public Law 810, he couldn't do it. Which doesn't seem fair.
Mr. WAMPLER. That is right.
Mr. RIVERS. Now, you say that there is a difference between an Academy cadet and an aviation cadet.
Commander PORTER. An Academy-well, of course.
Commander PORTER. Yes, sir. First of all, he isn't a cadet, but a midshipman.
Mr. RIVERS. Midshipman. Commander PORTER. But in the second place, we have two types of cadet time. Before 1952 he was not—he had no status except that as a cadet. After 1942 he had dual status.
Mr. RIVERS. He had what?
Mr. RIVERS. I thought so. When you are a cadet you are an enlisted man in the Navy?
Commander PORTER. That is after 1942.
Commander PORTER. But the wording of Public Law 810 is such that only an enlisted man, an officer, or a warrant officer
Mr. RIVERS. Who wrote that act?
Commander PORTER. I am not qualified to answer that, sir. I don't know where it came from.
Mr. PHILBIN. In 1947 or 1948.
If I understand you correctly, you are trying to make a few corrections here to bring reservists in line with the Regulars?
Commander PORTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. WINSTEAD. You are trying to avoid these other controversial issues in order to get this established at the present time?
Commander PORTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. WINSTEAD. Because you can involve this legislation with other propositions which may have a lot of merit, that can get this so confused that we will never get this irregularity straightened out.
Commander PORTER. Yes, sir. What we are trying to do is rectify Public Law 810, which has to do with Reserve retirements, and if we are going to bring in academy time with it we would be concerned with other laws.
Mr. RIVERS. We are not concerned with this. We haven't any authority to take that up.
Commander PORTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. RIVERS. But it was just brought up in the overall discussion. I will say, like Mr. Vinson, if we corrected all the mistakes that you down in the Navy have made, and in the bills that you sent up here to this committee, and the old Naval Affairs Committee, on which I was, too, we would be out of business. So we have to correct your mistakes as we find them. When I say "yours," I am talking about the Navy, and others.
Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Chairman. And sometimes our own.
Mr. Rivers. I think you made a very fine presentation of the Navy's problem, commander.
Now, are there any other questions of the commander? (No response.) Mr. Rivers. If not, we will get-who is the next supporting witness? Mr. SLATINSHEK. Lieutenant Colonel Eggleton. Mr. BRAY. Just one question. Who is speaking on behalf of the Department of Defense on this bill? Mr. SLATINSHEK. Mr. Bray, may I answer that? (Mr. Bray nods.) Mr. SLATINSHEK. Actually the commander is appearing on behalf of the Department of Defense. However, because of the technical nature of the matter, we thought it best to break up the testimony of witnesses and confine them to their particular areas of knowledge. The commander is conversant with the Navy problems, and the gentlemen who follow, that is, the representatives of the Army and Air Force, will be able to give us the answers in their respective areas of concern.
Mr. BRAY. Maybe he can answer this question, or maybe it should be addressed to someone else.
The Department of Defense also at the same time sent down requests for bills to be introduced rectifying some change in a similar situation, in the WAAC of the Army, didn't they? Are you aware of that bill that was sent down?
Commander PORTER. No, sir. I haven't seen that bill.
Mr. BRAY. It is not before this committee. But there was such a bill sent down by the Department of Defense. I wondered whether you knew about that bill.
Commander PORTER. Normally, sir, unless the bill does concern the Navy, it isn't sent to my department there for comment.
Mr. Bray. It is a little bit difficult, now. Because often the Department of Defense supersedes the three services. I imagine you are well aware of that. We just kind of want to know what your policy is. That is all. Mr. WAMPLER. Mr. Chairman, I have one more question. About how many would this affect if it were acceptable? Commander PORTER. Well, I was afraid of that question. That is an almost impossible thing to determine. We can tell pretty well with
Mr. Rivers. You don't want to leave that in the record, that you are afraid of any question. You are not afraid of any question.
Commander PORTER. No, sir.
Mr. RIVERS. We must obtain figures as nearly as you can estimate as to how many it will affect and how much it will cost.
Commander PORTER. Yes, sir; Department of Defense has come up with a figure. But the difficulty in the cadet situation is this: We don't know how many are going to continue to participate and be eligible for 810 retirement. There has been a heavy mortality along the way. It has reached the point-of course, as the law is written, the number that retire is, as intended, 5 percent. Now, that would be 5 percent of several thousand.
However, many of them integrated and many of them dropped out, and we have no mechanism whereby we can pick up the numbers.
We can in the Nurse Corps because they have kept better track of it, and there are fewer of them. They feel that of all the nurses that they had there would probably be somewhere around 670.
Mr. PHILBIN. What would that cost be?
Commander PORTER. But that is not the Defense Department. That is the Navy. Yes, sir.
Mr. RIVERS. That is the Navy.
Mr. Rivers. Have a seat, Colonel. I think we have had you up here before, haven't we?
Colonel ÉGGLETON. Yes, sir; all week.
Mr. Rivers. You just have a seat and bring your assistants and your professional people, and let us hear how this affects the Army.
Colonel EGGLETON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am Lieutenant Colonel Eggleton, Office of the Assistant Chief of Staff for Reserve Components, Department of the Army. I appreciate this opportunity to discuss H.R. 3365, as it affects personnel of the Army.
With me is Colonel Kidder, from the Office of the Surgeon General of the Army; Mr. Blatt, legal adviser to the Chief of the National Guard Bureau; Lieutenant Colonel Quinlan, from the Office of Chief of Finance; and Major Helterbran, of the Office of the Adjutant General.
First, with respect to service in the National Guard. Sections 1(A) and (2) of the bill would authorize the crediting of service in the