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Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not tell you that exactly. You see, they are employed on a specific contract basis for a particular job.

Mr. Bow. In other words, if you got a particular condemnation going on, you hire an expert for that job.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bow. You would not have any list, to your knowledge, of how many you have in the United States ?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We might be able to supply it. Mr. ROGERS. I could get it, but I would have to dig back through all of our vouchers that we have paid.

Mr. Bow. Could you give some idea how many people we use in this field?

Mr. ROGERS. I would say roughly 500 or 600, guessing of course, scattered throughout the United States. They are paid on a daily rate basis for days actually worked.

Mr. Bow. You pay as high as $250 ?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We might in a proper case.
Mr. Bow. Any higher than that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not recall anything any higher than that. In an unusual contested case where a large amount of money is riding on the outcome, we would go that far, if we had to go that far, to get the very best men available.

Mr. ROGERS. I cannot think of where we paid more than $250 a day. Actually, $250 a day is rare. We do not go that high very often. We go to $200 a day, but not very often, either. Usually it is $75 to $100 or $150 a day.

Mr. Bow. You think there are about 500?

Mr. ROGERS. I am guessing, sir, between 500 and 600 scattered throughout the United States.

Mr. Bow. These 500 or 600 participated in $1,142,000; right?
Mr. ROGERS. That is right.


Mr. WILLIAMS. That would include the anthropologists in these Indian cases, historians and ethnologists.

Mr. Bow. Do you pay them the same fee?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Not necessarily the same fee as an appraiser for valuation purposes. I do not know exactly why, but it costs us more to get an expert to testify as to valuation than it does to get one to testify, say, as to the Indians' actual exclusive occupancy of an area of land at some early date in the United States.

Mr. Bow. What have you been paying the professors who have been testifying?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It may amount to $50 to $75 a day. In some cases we have entered into specific contracts, say, for $10,000 or $12,000 to do a certain job for us. It depends upon the size of the job and its locality and how many people are available, what the competition might be.

Mr. Bow. What professors have you hired at $12,000 to do a job for you?


Mr. WILLIAMS. I recall one man from a college in St. Louis, Averam Bender, who was engaged to make a historical study in, I believe, the Fort Sill Apache Indian Claims case.

Mr. Bow. You paid him what!

Mr. WILLIAMS. A contract for $12,000 to do the historical work involved in that case and to write up a detailed report.

Mr. Bow. Was he a professor at some college
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, he was.
Mr. Bow. What school?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Some school, as I recall it, in St. Louis.

Mr. ROGERS. I do not not know the name of the school, but it is in St. Louis.

Mr. Bow. How long did it take him to do this job?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not quite sure.

Mr. ROGERS. About 3 years, I think, but I can insert the exact time in the record.

Mr. Bow. During that period of time he was also employed as a professor at this college?

Mr. ROGERS. He took some leave of absence. I am not sure how much. I know it was not 3 years.

Mr. ANDRETTA. Sometimes they subcontract their work. In other words, they have to take on assistants that they have to pay.

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right. We have one arrangement that has been going on for some time with the University of Indiana for the use of their ethnologists. Our contract is with the university, not with individuals, because these people are employed by the university, to consider the situation involving all of the Indians of the Great Lakes area. They have been doing a fine job for us.

Mr. Bow. What are you paying the University of Indiana ?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We are paying the University of Indiana $55,000 a year.

Mr. Bow. How long have they been employed at $55,000 a year?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Several years. Mr. Rogers, would you know the exact number?

Mr. ROGERS. They have been employed at $55,000 a year for about the last 3 years, I think it is. It was $40,000 a year for about 2 or 3 years before that, and then it was about $35,000 a year for the first 2 or 3 years. They have been employed in the neighborhood of 8 years.

It varied from around $35,000 to $55,000 a year.
Mr. Bow. What is that variation based upon ? Output?

Mr. ROGERS. Increased salaries to the professors at the university, increased travel costs, increased cost of materials, and that type of thing.

Mr. Bow. You are paying some of them $250 a day now. What were you paying them a year ago ?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think you recall I said up to $250 for the valuation specialist in a particular field. That is not the common rate.

Mr. Bow. I understand. My question is, Those that you are paying $250 a day, what were you paying them a year ago?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We might have gotten such a man for $200, maybe $175.

Mr. Bow. Were you paying any of them $250 a day a year ago!


Mr. WILLIAMS. I cannot think of any offhand. We can check our books and see whether it is a fact that we were.

Mr. Bow. You use about the same people right along, year in and year out?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No. If we know a mineral expert who has done good work for us and he is a good, sound man who can qualify to testify and get good results, if we had a similar case come up again, we probably would see if that man was available. We do not employ the same people all the time. We have experts and appraisers in the land-acquisition program who of course are spread all over the United States.

INCREASE IN FEES FOR APPRAISERS Mr. Bow. I am a little surprised at the amount of the increase you say these people have worked up. Has there been some meeting of these appraisers and have they agreed on how much they are going to charge?

Mr. ANDRETTA. It is general all the way through on experts. We are running into it on our experts that we use in other cases, particularly in the medical profession. They have gone through the roof.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do know many of the appraisers we use are members of several appraisal associations. I do not know, but they might have some schedules of fees such as the bar associations have for suggested fees for lawyers.

Mr. Bow. Do you have a copy of the list of the fees set down by the appraisers association ?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No. I am just surmising that they might have such a thing.

Mr. Bow. I think it would be very interesting to see it.

Mr. WILLIAMS. It might be. I am not stating that as a fact. I merely indicated that might be so.

Mr. Bow. Have you ever checked to find out whether there is such a fee list?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir, I never have, but I know we do our very best to hold down the fees. All of our fees for appraisers when they are submitted to us are first approved by the attorneys to whom the cases are assigned, and then they are approved by an expert appraiser we have employed on a full-time basis in the Department of Justice. He tells us whether or not the fees are reasonable for the type of work being done and whether or not the estimated time required to do that job is reasonable.

Mr. Bow. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ROONEY. Will you please insert at this point in the record a list of these appraisers in the past fiscal year and the amounts paid them.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. ROGERS. A list of all appraisers ?
Mr. ROONEY. Yes.
Mr. ROGERS. That will be a very long list, sir.

Mr. ROONEY. They tell me you can get a thing like that up pretty fast.

Mr. ROGERS. I will get it for you, sir.
(The information supplied follows:)

Itemization of expenditures and unliquidated obligations for special expert

services, 1960 fiscal year as of Mar. 6, 1961


Amount paid

Acevedo, Ferdinand.--- $2,400.00 Bushnell, Thomas M.----
Acuff, Joe R---

400.00 Butler, Glenn L----Adams, Pierce --

1,020.00 Campbell, James M. Agriculture, Department

Capener, J. A.of..

1, 684. 71 Carleton, Hugh E. Allen, Barbara..

487.60 Carlson, Theodore L-Alphen, James H..

100.00 Carr, J. A----Anderson, Grover C.-

25.00 Carroll, James A.. Anderson, Keith E.--

3, 775. 36 Carrothers, W. J-Anderson, Wayne Y----- 1, 100.00 Caudle, J. L.---Andrews, Jr., Harry L.--- 150.00 Causey, John A.--Arms, William A.--.

74. 80 Chalfant, Stuart A ---Armstrong, W. L----

400.00 Chandler, Jr., Robert E. Army, Department of the_- 6, 427. 56 Chapman, Carl H.. Arneson, Jr., H. R --

750.00 Chastain, Jeff---Atwater, Charles E.-

732. 18 Chatos, Angelos T.---Auchmuty, R. Laird..

550.00 Cherry, Bernard C---Babcock, Frederick M. 1, 172. 48 Chichester, Jr., C. H.-Baerreis, David A.--

244. 90 Christie, Roger FBaker, Verne A.--

2, 100.00 Clemens, John W.. Baldwin, W. Ludwell...

200.00 Clendaniel, George Baltzer, Vernon.-

100.00 Closser, Earl H.. Barker, Jr., Charles M.

30.00 Cockey, Edwin 0.Bath, Edwin G----

30.00 Coleman, C. S.----Batten, O. S..

720.00 Coleman, Norman E. Bauer, S. A

800.00 Comegys, Georgia J-Baum, F. O.--

195. 03 Conger, David L---Beal, Alexander S..

8, 100.00 Conkling, Harold. Beasley, Jr., Oscar H.. 1, 570.00 Copper, Bernard W. Bender, Averam B--

186.97 | Costilow, Parker E. Bergmann, Everett A..

80.00 Cotton, John --Bernheimer, Rudolph...

30.00 Courson, Herman L--Billingslea, Jesse C--

200.00 Cox, Marion. Binger, Walter D ---

775.00 Cox, T. Stearnes.Bingham, John A.

5,000.00 Crabtree, Robert W. Bishop, William E.-

30.00 Cranston, John M. Blackwell, Sr., Wiley T.. 30.00 Crockett, Ed.-Blalock, Fred..

3, 200.00 Culp, James F. Bluemle, Lewis W..

200.00 Cumming, William P---Boles, Allan..

200.00 Cunningham, John W---Bond, Lewis A..

80.00 Cupples, Leslie R--Borland, Gerald C.-.

200.00 Curran, Jr., Edward J.-Boucher, C. Robert

2, 725.00 Currell, John.-Bowes, Watson A.

1, 400.00 Curtis, Lawrence_ Boyd, Degen -

1, 625.00 Damon, Jr., Charles V-Braddy, L. C.-----

5, 850.00 Davidge, Jr., John W.Bradley, Tommy P.

312. 50 | Davies, Forrest E.--Brady, Hugh C

600. 00 Davis, C. W. Brager, Max.

200.00 Davis, W. D----Brandt, Inc., C. O.--

60.00 Dawson, William P.. Brody, James C.

900.00 Dewald, W. ELBrown, Charles R.

10.00 Dietrich, Jr., F.J. Brown, Homer..

446. 76 Dismukes, S. W.. Brown, P. M.--

150.00 Dixon, Lloyd.. Breen, W. P

50.00 Dolman, John PBregar, J. M.

200.00 Donovan, Arthur F. Brewton, Cecil A..

80.00 Downing, C. Wade. Buell, Harold W.

25.00 Douglas, Wallace La--Burbedge, Robert O---- 1, 251.06 Draper, Leroy D-----Burcham, Robert P..

20.00 Drennan, Sheldon L-Burns, O. H.

600.00 | Duck, Jr., Berkeley W. 1 Special master appointed by the court.

Amount paid $3, 861. 85

900.00 1,500.00 150.00

40.00 690. 34

300.00 2, 455.00 7, 392. 54

200.00 250.00 144. 56 900.00 759. 39

700.00 5, 393. 04 1,000.00

100.00 1, 650.00 1, 600.00

345.00 1, 250.00

20.00 450.00 300.00

74. 75

800.00 10, 371. 60

40.00 3,000.00

100.00 700.00

750.00 2, 600.00 1, 433. 80 12, 240. 20

390.00 1, 200.00

172. 00 800.00

550.00 1, 600.00

100.00 1, 882.57 2, 650.00

200.00 900.00 800.00 118. 75 190.00

132. 60 4,900.00

25.00 150.00 400.00 100.00 10.00

80.00 1, 324. 97

901. 20 150.00

Itemization of expenditures and unliquidated obligations for special expert services, 1960 fiscal year as of Mar. 6, 1961-Continued


Amount paid

Amount paid Duncan, F. David.. $700.00 Hagemeyer, Walter.

$20.00 Dunham, Harold H.--41. 00 | Halgrimson, Martin.

1,975. 68 Dunn, Dominick. 125.00 Hall, Elton.

750.00 Earisman, Edgar E_ 200.00 Hall, Richard B..

11, 500.00 Eichhorst, William W.

150,00 Hall, III, Thomas H.. 4, 950.00 Elbel, Clarence. 100.00 Hamilton, Richarda

400.00 Ellis, Florence H.-5, 293. 40 Handler, Edward J.

10. 00 Englehorn, Vern A.-600.00 Hannoch, Franklin...

1, 075.00 Enright, Harold F.-. 125. 00 Hansen, J. Leslie ---

625.00 Erich, Ezra E.. 4, 125.00 Hanvey, E

1,200.00 Eslick, C. Bruce------- 637.50 Harben, Darwin.---

3, 175. 64 Estrin, David I-30.00 Hardesty, Joseph A.

495. 40 Eustace, H. T.-250.00 | Hardman, Troy E--

575.00 Evans, Samuel ---50. 00 Harmon, George-

250.00 Evans, Bernard G---8, 950.00 Harps, William S.-----

860.00 Danchik, Bernard R----30.00 Harris, Joseph T.--

200.00 Fagin, V. B. 2, 025.00 Harris, Sidney J

488. 76 Farris, Jack.--120.00 | Harrison, Edgar E.

738. 49 Federal Housing Adminis

Hart J. Sam_

11, 504. 18 tration -

7, 932. 48 Harvey, Sr., A. Brown.. 4, 251. 60 Federal Power Commis

Harvey, Herbert R..

7, 276, 35 sion.-

1, 212. 47 | Hastings, Robert C-------, 15, 318. 26 Feveroat, Charles.----691. 10 Hatch, Chester W.

600.00 Fevold, J. S.--

50. 00 | Hawkins, Estel O., and Fischer, Morris.40. 00 John E. Criss ---

1, 400.00 Fisher, Arthur M.2, 200.00 Hawks, R. E---

300.00 Fletcher, Charles F. 1, 762. 50 Hayes, E. B.-

210.00 Ford, Ernest H.--300.00 Hechinger, John W-

20.00 Forell, Ora E.. 2, 622. 96 Heinrich, Harvey --

35. 00 Forman, Charles_390.00 Helms, Mercer D..

1, 144. 20 Foster, Jr., John Carl.-- 100.00 Herrington, Henry----

63. 02 Francis, Walter H.50.00 Herskowitz, Louis I...

10.00 Frantzen, Harold C--50.00 Hester, Harriet --

226. 70 Friedenberg, Charles_ 10.00 Hickey, Robert M.

20.00 Friedman, Joseph. 80.00 Hickson, Robert E.

1, 313. 76 Frost, J. P. 375.00 Hicks, William H..

100.00 Furman, Jr., William A.- 3, 285.00 Hill, Raymond A.

770. 56 Furr, Herman R.. 875.00 Hilton, George W.

150.00 Gaetano, O. J. de_ 66. 87 | Hines, Everett K..

2, 200.00 Gallaway, Jr., A. Russell.. 700.00 Hitchcock, William D...

40.00 Gilbert, C. Gordon... 500.00 Hitterdal, Donald M.

200.00 Gill, George J.

80.00 | Hoffer, Temple P------ 2, 221. 03 Gilliland, G. I.---450. 00 Holcombe, James H.-

2, 750.00 Gist, Fred L----50.00 Holland, John D..

10. 00 Glukenhouse, Isadore_-. 30.00 Holloway, Allan T.

1,900.00 Goldstucker, H. L-----100.00 Hopkins, J. H.---

100.00 Gomez, Stanley--50.00 Hopkins, Robert W.

487.50 Goodman, Benjamin.-20.00 Hopper, James A--

11, 625.00 Goodrich, Harold S.1, 700.00 Horne, Archie J...

50.00 Gousha, James B.10.00 Houck, Fred S.

900.00 Greer, Onis L-----150. 00 | Houston, James M.

20. 00 Grice, III, A. P---225. 00 | Howell, Burl H.

3, 450.00 Griffin, W. Z----1, 955. 02 Hoy, Maxine

194. 95 Griggs, James M.. 2, 600.00 Hoyt, Homer..

4, 550.00 Grigsby, Edward G.--262. 50 | Hoyt, William G.

727. 42 Griffeth, O. K. 675.00 Hudgins, Otto

25. 00 Graves, Lawrence F.. 487.50 Hughes, Leon D..--

50.00 Groves, Richard N.-1,000.00 Hunt, Woody--

200.00 Guiney, Joseph.100.00 Hurlock, Jr., C. H.---

100.00 Gutbrie, Eugene C-----30.00 Hutchinson, George_

1,200.00 Hadley, Walter F.-- ---- 6,700.00 | Inman, Douglas L-----


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